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2006-03-17 Interview with Larry Chiswell, March 17, 2006 2008OH150 LCC 009 1:22:10 CC002 Community Colleges of Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Lexington Community College Kentucky Community and Technical College System Larry Chiswell; interviewee Rick Smoot; interviewer Lexington Community College 2008OH150_LCC09_Chiswell 1:|17(4)|42(10)|70(11)|96(4)|135(4)|163(3)|188(11)|227(7)|241(6)|280(1)|298(2)|314(4)|336(9)|353(3)|366(9)|386(6)|400(5)|413(4)|428(4)|461(6)|474(5)|500(4)|540(8)|568(1)|602(6)|631(4)|669(9)|686(12)|726(5)|748(7)|768(1)|783(11)|795(4)|807(9)|842(5)|861(11)|884(7)|901(1)|932(11)|945(7)|957(2)|978(3)|992(5)|1005(3)|1021(11)|1047(5)|1065(3)|1090(13)|1119(7)|1133(8)|1167(2)|1178(6)|1201(10)|1233(3)|1275(7)|1307(7)|1322(8)|1333(1)|1375(2)|1388(3)|1398(8)|1432(3)|1460(8)|1472(17)|1498(4)|1532(2)|1552(7)|1573(7)|1588(8)|1605(6)|1632(2)|1667(7)|1699(8)|1750(4)|1780(2)|1802(9)|1831(10)|1856(1)|1868(5)|1885(3)|1931(10)|1986(3) audiotrans CommuColl interview SMOOT: Test, test, test, test. One, two, three. Interview with Larry Chiswell D.MD, Bluegrass Community and Technical College, Oswald Building Room 246, March 17th, 2006. Dr. Chiswell-- CHISWELL: Yes SMOOT: --would you please give me a little of your own personal background, your, your community where you grew up, your family, your educational background, tell me a little about yourself, in other words? CHISWELL: Okay, that's kind of complicated. Uh, my father was in the military, so I was born in Washington D.C. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: We lived in Virginia Beach; Long Beach, California; Seattle, Washington; Cleveland, Ohio; a little town in northern Michigan called Cheboygan. SMOOT: I've heard of Cheboygan. CHISWELL: Um, graduated from their high school, went to Michigan State, graduated in 1968, came to dental school in '68, graduated from there-- SMOOT: UK? CHISWELL: --in 1972. From UK-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --um, at the height of the Vietnam War. So, if you are old enough to remember draft numbers, the draft. My draft number was number nine. SMOOT: Oh dear. CHISWELL: My birthday was selected. One of the few things I've ever won, you know (both laugh). So, uh, I knew I was gonna get drafted, so in dental school they had an opportunity for you to go in and get your reserve duty out of the way as a, as a dental student. So I did that, and then, low and behold, just as I was graduating, uh, Richard Nixon ended the war in Vietnam. So, um, of all places, they sent me to Northern Italy for two years, which was-- SMOOT: How awful. CHISWELL: Yeah, it was terrible (Smoot laughs). I mean, if you had to be in the army, that was a really nice place to be. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: We, we-- SMOOT: Is it Tyrol? Tyrol? CHISWELL: Yes, Tyrolean area, actually, uh, the Po Valley runs from Milan straight west, all the way over to Venice-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --and it's about a hundred miles, give or take a little, and about two-thirds of the way you get to Verona, which is the north-south up to Innsbruck, Austria, and down to Florence. The main trains run east and west, and north-south right through Verona. Well, the next town over from Verona was a town about the size of, a little bit smaller than, Lexington, called Vicenza, and they had a big arm-, they had a relatively small army base there, until I got there, and then the Airborne came in, and that's where a lot of staging went after I left for the Balkan areas, and then a sister air force base, um, somewhere about fifty miles, that I, I never went to Aviano, but there was a lot, back then, there was a lot of missiles pointed toward the Soviet Union that were all through the northern alps, and we used to support that sort of mysterious group that would come in and stay for a few days and then disappear again. SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: Um, but that was, that was a great place to live. It was cheap. Bottle of wine was twenty-five cents. SMOOT: Hmm. CHISWELL: Our, our rent of a beautiful, I'm not sure, you know, thousand- year-old villas, but, uh, we had a four bedroom, about an acre of land, vineyard around the edge, rose garden. Just beautiful. We paid one hundred and sixty dollars a month. (Smoot laughs) Out in the country-- SMOOT: Yeah (??). CHISWELL: --our, our neighbors, our neighbors were about fifty yards away. He was illiterate. He's a farmer. Very nice. If you, and we tried to sp-, we learned Italian, so they-- SMOOT: I was gonna ask you if you could speak Italiano. CHISWELL: Un, un poc-, in fact, it's all mixed up with French and Spanish-- SMOOT: Yeah, I know what you mean. CHISWELL: --and I'm trying to remember them. Poquito or un poqueno in Spanish. (Smoot laughs) But, uh, we, at the time, we could sp-, we could understand it pretty well-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and we could, we could speak around to get what we wanted to say, but that's pretty much, it, it's, it's kind of gone now unfortunately. There's-- SMOOT: Let me back up for a second-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --before you, before you carry on there, it's a, uh, what did you study as an undergrad? CHISWELL: Um--(laughs)--that's a good question. I started out to be an engineer. SMOOT: What kind of an engineer? CHISWELL: Uh, um, well, I got two semesters into it and realized that maybe that wasn't what I wanted to do, so I, I really wasn't, um-- SMOOT: Yeah, you hadn't gone that far to commit. CHISWELL: I hadn't gotten that far-- SMOOT: I see. CHISWELL: --um, and I liked psychology and ma-, I'd always enjoyed math ,um, and I enjoyed history, and I always enjoyed biology, and so, I was sort of at the end of my sophomore year with about junior level credits and my advisor called me, and he said, "You know, you have to pick a major." (laughs) So, I ended up looking at dental school. I thought about going to medical school, and I thought those guys have no life, you know? So, I had some friends who were dental students, or interested in dental school, and they sort of convinced me of the error of my ways. And so then I ended up, um, getting a bachelor's in biological sciences. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: All right. Any background in, in your family for dentistry or-- CHISWELL: No-- SMOOT: --medicine or any of that sort of thing? CHISWELL: Well, actually, my grand-, my father's family was a bunch of physicians in the Civil War era, so, I mean, my parents kind of thought I was gonna go that way when I stopped looking at engineering. (clears throat) But they, they were all career military; my father, my f-, my grandfather, my uncle, my brother, they all went to the Coast Guard Academy. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: So, I was sort of the weird black sheep of the family--(Smoot laughs)--and to go into the army, they were like, what? SMOOT: (both laugh) Where is the Coast Guard Academy? CHISWELL: It's in New London, Connecticut. SMOOT: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I remember. CHISWELL: Yeah, right where the submarines dock in Groton and all that area there. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. So we, we really enjoyed Northern Italy. We traveled a lot. My wife is, was actually, uh, majored in art history, but her, her love was Italian art. So, um, we, when we were getting the, what my father always called the wish list, you know, if you want to go somewhere, he said don't ever put it on that because you'll never go there. (both laugh) Anyway, I put down, of the choices, to go to Italy first, uh, Germany second, England third, I think Japan third--fourth because we were interested in traveling. SMOOT: Hmm, lovely choices. CHISWELL: Yeah. When I got my orders first, it said I was assigned to Heidelberg, Germany. I was like, oh no. German was not my, I took one day of German--(laughs)-- SMOOT: Yeah-- CHISWELL: --in college. SMOOT: --I minored in it. It's a tough, it's tough. CHISWELL: Yeah, it was tough. INTERVIWER: Yeah. CHISWELL: Um, but then it turned out Heidelberg was the headquarters for the whole of what they call CTAP, which is Southern Eurofor-, European Task Force, I guess, for the army. And, uh, the second set of orders said we were going to Italy. I was like, all right. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: So, and I had put on there that my wife, that I spoke some Spanish and I spoke some French, and my wife, um, had majored in, you know, Italian art history, you know, so I guess they looked at that. It was interesting, the people there, there were five dentists, one of em's name was Bonjurno, Al Bonjurno--(Smoot laughs)--one of em's name was Angelica, Angelo Casagrande--(Smoot laughs)--you know, so, I was like, how did they get me? (Smoot laughs) They must, they must actually look at some of that. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Okay. So you, you served in, in Italy-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --for a time, uh, approximately the dates? CHISWELL: Two years, August, um, I went in, in July of '72. You got a, they send you to, to professional boot camp in Sam Houston, Texas, where you live in a hotel and, you know, you go out to steak dinners every night. There was a golf course and a swimming pool, and once in a while you went out and shot a gun, um, marched around a parade once. The rest of the time you went to all these classes where they tried to talk you into joining the Airborne or, you know, explaining a variety of things to make sure you understood that you were actually in the army, and you had to go to work and things like that. We were there about six weeks and then, uh, my wife's family, her mother was from England, is from England, and hear-, we heard while we there that her grandfather was dying. So they let us take, um, a temporary emergency leave on the way to Italy, we stopped in England, spent two weeks there, and got to see him. So we arrived in Italy about middle of, late of, part of August, and I got my, we were there two years, and I got my orders of discharge to come home the day Richard Nixon resigned in August eighth-- SMOOT: August ----------(??)-- CHISWELL: --or ninth-- SMOOT: That's right. CHISWELL: --of 1974 SMOOT: Yeah, the ninth, I think. CHISWELL: Yeah. Yeah, I was sitting in my office when the phone rang, and they were sending orders and--(coughs)--that, that was sort of an interesting coincidence. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: 'Cause over there we didn't get a whole lot of news, but we used to listen to the radio, um, there was American Forces, uh, Newspaper, which was, didn't carry anything, I mean, it was political. But, we could pick up some American Forces radio, and they had the, the, uh, I remember listening to the, um, oh Dean, what was his first name? SMOOT: John Dean? CHISWELL: John Dean's testimony before Congress, and, well, that was pretty riveting stuff. SMOOT: Yeah, I've read his book-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --um, Blind Ambition. CHISWELL: I, I never read the book, but I remember se-, basically laying on the floor in our house, 'cause we didn't, there was no TV to watch, um, listening to all that, um, multiple nights, just sort of intrigued by the whole mess, and could this really have happened, and, yeah, it was just a, it wasn't as morbidly fascinating as 9/11, but it was riveting, just to, just to think, you know, there was a similar disbelief I, you know, that couldn't have happened-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --even though you know it did. SMOOT: Yeah. Uh, where did you meet your wife? CHISWELL: Um, when we, when we moved to Cleveland, Ohio, that would have been 1959. My wife, uh, moved into the same community, suburb of Cleveland, and her name was Bowen and mine was Chiswell, so we happened to sit right next-door to each other in homeroom class, and, um, she teased me unmercifully. Of course, I was so attracted to that, you know. (both laugh) Yeah. SMOOT: Yeah. So you've known each other since high school? CHISWELL: Since, uh, eighth grade, and then I moved to Michigan, lost track of her, had some friends we kept in contact with. I actually went down to visit them in the summer between my junior and senior year, and then my senior year, that summer, my parents moved to New York City, and on the way to New York to work, I stopped in that, you know, town, spent a few days, um, and then, she happened to go to Michigan State, and so, ran into multiple people that, you know, were from the same high school, from the Bay Village High School in Cleveland and ,uh, eventually we started studying together. I, I was seeing so-, a girl up in Northern Michigan, and she was seeing a guy down in Ohio, small school in Ohio, and I would help her with her math and science, and she would help me with my English. And so on Sunday afternoons, we'd get together, and then we'd go out and have a burger, and because we were seeing somebody else, when, when social things would come up, we'd sort of ask each other if, you know, you wanted to go? And, um, one thing led to another you know how those long distance relationships don't work out sometimes, and-- SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: So we were just really enjoyed each other, and that's just how it evolved. SMOOT: You came back to the United States from Italy in 1974? CHISWELL: Came back, I wrote to the Dean of the, uh, actually the, uh, Dean of Students, he wasn't the Dean of Dental School, Richard, uh, Dick Barton was the Dean of the, of Students over at UK's Dental School. But, I had gotten to know--really liked him, and I wrote him. I said, Dick, I don't know what I want to be or what I want to do when I grow up--(laughs)--and I'm coming, I'm in Italy. I don't know if I want to specialize. I've always thought maybe I'd like to teach maybe half a day a week, or a day a week, which meant that I'd have to live in, uh, somewhere near a dental school (??). I'd thought maybe I might go back to Michigan, 'cause it's a beautiful state, alth-, although it's cold. So do you, I wrote and I said, do you have anything that would sort of get me back here. I didn't know if I was going to specialize, become a pediatric dentist, 'cause I like kids-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --um, just for a year. So I could get settled. I sort of come back, look around, think about things, and they wrote and said, Yea, actually, we have, we've just gotten two grants, one was in restorative dentistry, which is the drill and fill part of teaching students, and the other part was in dental hygiene, to teach dental hygienists how to do children's dentistry, because back then in '74 there was, um, a, a federal budget. I wouldn't say surplus, but it was good, and they were looking at national health insurance, and they were looking at the, the national dental insu-, health for kids. And so, they were then saying, well, if that happened, there's no way dentists could handle all the kids, six-year-olds that would come into their office, you know, seven, six and seven-year-olds and six of eight-year- olds each year progress. The dental, uh, the dentists just couldn't handle all those kids. So, there was a pretty smart guy over here in the Dental School named Eric Spawn. He said, "Well, why don't we educate hygienists. There's an Australian health nurse model that they train auxiliaries to be like children's dentists." And so, he looked at that, and he said he got Robert Lee Johnson to fund a couple hundred thousand dollars a year for three years to train graduate hygienists to be children's dentists, essentially. And so he, he had that, and so I wrote back and said, you know, I don't care which one, I'm, I'm, both of them sound interesting to me. I'd be glad to take them. So, it worked out. Eric Spawn (??) hired me in mid-August of '74. I came back, and within a couple of months, I knew that this was just what I want to do. I was teaching the classrooms. Dental hygienists are smart. They're, they're motivated. They want to learn. That's a perfect situation for a teacher. You, you, there's so many applicants, you, you basically get the cream of the crop. Um, they come to class, you know, motivated to learn. They're pretty personable. Uh, it's, it's just a very enjoyable way to make a living. SMOOT: Now, this was gonna be, uh, in the University of Kentucky? CHISWELL: This was in the College, actually it was in the College of Allied Health. SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: The Dental Hygiene program was a baccalaureate program in the College of Allied Health, but they actually had a clinic up on the fifth floor of the dental school. So it was a nice relationship with the dental school. And, I had appointment in both the dental school and, and the College of Allied Health, and it was soft money for a couple years. And, uh, toward the end of that period, uh, Jimmy Carter was the president. I don't know if you, you probably remember the economy just went sour. Interest rates went up to, like, 15 percent. The whole issue of national dental health insurance just died overnight. Robert Lee Johnson let us know they weren't going to fund a second three years. At the same time, there was a push, that you probably don't know, in the governor's office, and I think it was a national push, a lot of the auxiliary programs like dental hygiene, respiratory care, RADTAC, nuclear medicine, they were baccalaureate programs, um, they decided at the g-, governors' level that they would take those programs out of the bachelor's level, and move them into associate degree programs. For example, dental hygiene was really, it's really a three-year program, and the fourth year was some stuff with dental students, uh, advanced growth and development kinds of things. They, they basically created an advanced degree, but it's a three-year program. Now they decided that it would be easier for the students. They could come right out of school, high school, they would be cheaper for them, they don't have two years of, um, you know, costs associated with tuition and housing, etc., and they could get into the work field faster, etc. It makes, it makes a lot of sense on paper, but they didn't realize was, was that it wasn't a two-year program either, it was a three-year program, and it's a very rigorous to get through in two years. So a-, at that same time, they were, the decision was made to phase out the four-year baccalaureate hygiene program, to phase in the two-year, and, which happened to be here. So they literally took their last class in '77, graduated in '79 at UK. This program actually opened in '76 to get it going, and then to take the first class in '77. I guess they graduated the last one in '78, because we had our first one in '79. So--(clears throat)--when I was sort of looking around like, okay this is what I want to do that program was phasing out, this one was opening up. So, I really had this elitist kind of mentality, I didn't want to go to the community college, I wanted stay in the med center. But, in the end, um, I applied. I liked what they had, they liked me, I liked them, and switched over here, and I've been grateful for the, for the, uh, serendipitous event of that, because I've really enjoyed being here. It's a great school. It's, it's, it's not at all focused on research and all the other stuff that people get at, tied in, um, have to concentrate how to get promoted. I mean we just, we just concentrate on teaching, which is really the fun part. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. And so, came over here and never had any ambition to, you know, to be an administrator. I, I've been invited, um, I was advising, actually paid to go down to Vanderbilt to start a program for them-- [Pause in recording.] CHISWELL: Is it working? SMOOT: Looks like it is CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Hold on. [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: Okay. Well, I wa-, I, I have had opportunities to, you know, move up, I guess is how one might put it. I, I was invited to down-- Vanderbilt was opening a program, and invited me to come down and apply, and I'm ----------(??)-- SMOOT: Great institution. CHISWELL: Yeah. They, they flew my wife and I down and wined and dined us, and the more I thought about it, they wanted somebody who really practiced a lot, generated a lot of money, and ran the program, and did research. And, I was--(clears throat)--not, I, yeah, I was very naive when I took this program, is how much work it is (laughs). Fortunately, I had some experience and realized just how consuming that is, and I thought, you know, I, that's not really what I want to do. I just, um, I would much prefer to, to have more time with students and less time, um, or more time, where I could spend with my family. We had small kids at the time, and I've always known that I didn't want to be an administrator. I didn't want to be a dean. I don't even want to be a division chair. Um, which probably the rest of the people in the division are happy about (both laugh). But, anyway, it's just been, um, really enjoyable, the, the faculty, the demo-, oth- , other faculty we've had have been wonderful. We've had very little turnover. Um, everybody that we've had, unfortunately, I, I think, we have selected, um, had expertise and the personality that worked well with other people. So we've been blessed in that regard. So it, it, it isn't without problems, uh, all programs have them, but it's been, it's been, it's been a great place to work. It's rarely any day can I, I can remember when I haven't looked forward to coming in and, and, uh, whatever little challenges of the day would be, it's always been something positive. SMOOT: Now, you're association here started in 1970-- CHISWELL: I think it was December of '75 or 6, I can't remember, I guess 5. Because, let me think, well maybe it was '76, uh, I can't remember. Maybe I'll think of it. SMOOT: Well, no, no. You, you-- CHISWELL: One of those years. SMOOT: You, well you've had the, uh, the program--you, you, you left Italy in '74-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --then you had the two years, I guess, at UK? CHISWELL: So it was probably two, yeah, two years at UK. It was probably December of '76. Tri Roberts was here. Dan Holt was here. Dan Holt was the business-- SMOOT: Director. CHISWELL: Director, we didn't call him, yeah, well actually, the director was now the president. SMOOT: Yes. CHISWELL: And I forgot what we used to call business manager, or whatever-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --um, and there aren't very many other people I can think of that are still here. SMOOT: Who was the director when you came here? CHISWELL: Bill Price. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: Bill Price was a very interesting person. Ha-, have you had, Bill Price was a, like a major in the marine reserves, and I liked Bill a lot-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --because he was very direct-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --but he would do some rather strange things. I mean, he would get up in front, well, our faculty meetings were held sometimes in room 320 upstairs, and tells you how small--you knew everybody. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: There might be forty or fifty faculty, maybe. I, I can't remember exactly. And Bill would occasionally get up and just rant like he was in the marines, but the thing I liked about him is you could go down to his office the next day and say, "Bill, you really shouldn't do that." (both laugh) And he would just laugh and say, "Yeah. I know." (laughs) I mean, for, for his, his, uh, sort of, uh, strangeness, at least he was approachable and you knew what he was doing, he, he, he wasn't, were no games, and you didn't have to, there was no politics, you know. You could just talk straight with him. SMOOT: Well there's a lot to be said for that-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --isn't there? CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and you didn't have to feel like he would retaliate if you, if you criticized what he did-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --as long you were, you know, showed respect. He was a director, you know, he didn't do it in front of everybody else, but you could go to him and say, face to face, you know, you're a jerk. (both laugh) SMOOT: Okay, well--(Chiswell laughs)--that, there is a lot to be said for that. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Now, he was the director until, I think, 1984? CHISWELL: Somewhere along those lines. SMOOT: When Sharon Jaggard-- CHISWELL: Shay, Shay Jaggard came. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Shay Jaggard was not the college's first choice. There was a lot of intrigue about that. Apparently, she was Charles Wethington's choice. He was the chancellor at the time. She, she was with us a couple of years, I can't remember. Not very long. SMOOT: Hmm, '84 to '86. CHISWELL: Yeah, Shay Jaggard developed a reputation of no matter when you had an appointment with her she was, like, always twenty or thirty minutes late. And one day, well, obviously, you can ex-, you can under-, appreciate that the enviro-, the, sort of the, there was a tension between she and the faculty. She, she had a, I'm, I'm-the- director attitude. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: And one day, she called a special meeting, which, you know, never happens, up in 320, you know, four o'clock ----------(??) called a special meeting. So, everybody's up there going, what's going on? She walks in and she says, "As of today I'm resigning, I'm taking a job in Indiana, and I'm out of here," and I, we're all like, "Really?" (both laugh) SMOOT: I see. CHISWELL: Yeah, that was quite a surprise. So my wife happened to be teaching a part-time, a part-time in their architectural design course. She's a, I, I think I mentioned, she's quite an artist-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --and she was teaching what they call rendering, how these architect students can put together portfolios, and renderings are sort of an overview art of what the final project will look like when, you know, with the landscaping etc. SMOOT: ----------(??)-- CHISWELL: Yeah, exactly. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah, she was teaching how to do portfolios and how to, you know, what, what to think about to, to present, 'cause that's really what her forte is, and she called over here, Oh I've forgotten the director ,um, architects director's name back then ,uh, coordinator, really very enjoyable person ,um, maybe it'll come to me. It's on the tip of my tongue, and she called me, like five o'clock, right before I came out. She said "What is going on over there? I called Betty, uh, Weeks-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: I just got off the phone with Betty Weeks, and she said it was like mayhem over there, you could hear these people shouting and laughing." (both laugh) SMOOT: Well, so no lamentations? CHISWELL: Not much. SMOOT: Hmm. CHISWELL: No, there weren't very many people who were lamenting over that. SMOOT: Ben Carr took over for a time after that. CHISWELL: Ah, you know, I would've not remembered that until you said that. He was with us, what, for six months or a year? SMOOT: Yeah, I haven't-- CHISWELL: Yeah, Ben, Ben had been an associate director under Bill Price, then he begu-, became the, uh, Charles Wethington assistant chancellor, whatever that was called. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: Ben's very competent. So, yeah, that's right. He came back for a short time, and then, what, we had Alan Edwards? SMOOT: Alan Edwards. CHISWELL: Alan Edwards came for five or six years. SMOOT: I had him down from '87 to '91. CHISWELL: Yeah, that was-- SMOOT: That's the transition from director to president. CHISWELL: That's right. Somewhere in there he became the president. Alan had a challenge. We were, we, we have traditionally been so underfunded, I mean, I can remember Alan (??) presenting us figures, the old ,uh, ,um, formula funding, you know, it, this is what they project you need. They figure that's 100 percent. K-State was getting 98 percent of what they thought they needed. Um, the regional universities were getting, like, 93 percent. UK was getting, like, 92 percent. LCC was getting 63 or 64 percent of our formula funding. So, we were always struggling. Our, our travel budget was sixty dollars per person per year. Our equipment budget could be zero, I mean, it was pathetic, but we just plugged along. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Um-- CHISWELL: Then Alan left, and was that when, uh-- SMOOT: Tony Newberry. CHISWELL: Tony Newberry came. That's right. Tony was then associate chancellor, I guess, to Ben, Ben Carr, I guess was-- SMOOT: Well, I don't know that, I'm, I'm-- CHISWELL: Yeah. I'm trying to remember. SMOOT: --you, you tell me about that. CHISWELL: Somewhere along the line Wethington became U-, UK president. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: Ben Carr became chancellor. Ton-, I think Tony was the associate chancellor. So, Tony was here for a year-- SMOOT: He-- CHISWELL: --um, and that's when I realized that, you know, we, we can function just fine without a president--(Smoot laughs)--but you have a, you have a secretary that's out for a day and, man, this place goes, goes to pot. There's a certain irony about things like that, you know. SMOOT: Yeah. (Chiswell laughs) Sure enough. CHISWELL: Yeah, I mean, we had, we had associate directors who, or directors' presidents who were never here because they were, you know, chancellors and had other jobs. Colleges function, like, didn't miss a beat. (both laugh) SMOOT: Well, then there was a, there was a ,uh, certainly a ,uh, I don't know, was that controversial, I, I, yeah, I'll say controversial president that came in after that, Janice Friedel. CHISWELL: Jan Friedel came, I remember Judy McLaughlin (??) was the ch-, a coordinator of radiology, and then, became our division chair for a while, really liked Judy, very competent person. Judy was on that selection committee, and Judy came in afterwards and said, "We got, we are so blessed. This is the best candidate we could, I just can't tell you how good Jan Prudel is." (laughs) SMOOT: I have heard this b-, I've heard this. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: So she, wow, knocked our socks off in the, uh, selection process and, um, I'll tell you personally, I, I had been invited actually to go to far eastern Russia in mid to late August of the year she came on to provide some dental education for a, um, an organization there, through the College of Dentistry. SMOOT: Hmm. (Chiswell clears throat) What, like, Vladivostok? CHISWELL: Actually, um, that Habarask, if you know where that is. SMOOT: Not right off. CHISWELL: Okay, Habarask is, I have to go back and look at a map, but I believe it's, it's closer to the China border. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: Okay. And I was going to be gone for two weeks. Tony Newberry had approved it. Yeah, Tony, that's right. Tony was before Jan. Um, Jan comes on board by, uh, July first or whatever, and everything is, you know, is all in the works, and she says, you're not going to go, and I'm like, um, okay I mean you are my boss--(laughs)- -but, um, it's all part of a consorted group through the College of Dentistry, and they're kind of counting on me to go. The Dean of the Dental School's calling her, asking her to change her mind, and she won't call him back, and I'm in the middle, you know--(clears throat)-- and I'm like, oh geez. SMOOT: But do we have some rationale here? CHISWELL: Yeah, and I, so, she said, "Uh, that's not what we do, we teach here, classes start at the end of August, and you're not going to be here, and your program needs you." So I said, "Okay." So, about a month later, I set up an appointment with her, and I went in and I said, I want you to appreciate--(clears throat)--you're the president, you have the right to decide--(clears throat)--but I did not appreciate the way that was handled. It, it was professionally embarrassing because of my relationship. I have an appointment in the College of Dentistry, um, it's not a personal thing. I will be happy to, to do whatever we do here, and I'll be happy to work with you, but I just want you to know, so that we're, we're clear on, on our relationship, I'm, I don't have a problem with you, but I didn't appreciate the way that was handled. Tony Newberry was here, he approved it, okay. And, you know, it was interesting, I, I kind of had a good relationship with her after I went in and did that. I don't know if she felt like just being as honest, you know, that I wasn't going to hold anything against her, but I was willing to come, face to face, privately, and say "Look, I didn't like that, but I can live with it. You're the boss, you know, I just want you to know how I feel, and that I don't have any, I don't have any personal animosity against you, but professionally, I just didn't think it was a good decision, and I'm (??), so I want to you to know that." So--(clears throat)--after that, actually, we had a pretty good relationship, and it was all the peripheral things that, you know, they start happening (??), which I know some about, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't first hand, but I, I, I, you would see this growing ---------(??) swell of things that she would sort of s-, I would hear that she had done. And finally, it kind of came to a head. We had a faculty meeting. A proposal of some change was passed by the faculty, and she said she was--(laughs)--the faculty representative to the System, and she wasn't carrying it forward, that was her prerogative and everybody was like, "What?" Your, your faculty is saying this is what we approve, and you're deciding that you will not carry it forth because that's your prerogative. I was like, this power struggle was obviously occurring, and then, the next faculty meeting, there was channel twenty-seven news. It, is that the first time we brought that up? (laughs) SMOOT: No. CHISWELL: They were in the audience, in the auditorium, with camera-- SMOOT: And she did that-- CHISWELL: --and lights. SMOOT: --with the TV-- CHISWELL: Um-- SMOOT: --cameras on? CHISWELL: Um, I don't remember exactly what transpired at that faculty meeting, but somebody had brought this to the news, you know, I mean it was that hot of an issue, and there's, I think it was Barry Peel in our faculty meeting, and I, I really can't remember anything about that faculty meeting except they were there (both laugh). SMOOT: Yeah, okay. CHISWELL: And shortly thereafter, she resigned and went back to Iowa. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: And, and I, you know, the details of it, I had no clue. She announced that she'd been hired as a, you know, it was a promotion-type leaving, and she took this job at something-or-other in Iowa, and she was going to be leaving us, and there was another sort of day of, um, no lamenting--(both laugh)--no lamentations. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Let's see, and so then, we got ----------(??) Chapman, Jim Chapman? SMOOT: Jim Chapman. CHISWELL: Jim Chapman was fabulous. Jim came from campus and, and basically wa-, was verbal about saying you guys don't have computers. You don't have email. You don't have a place to eat. You know, he was, like, shocked. It was like we finally had somebody who was a, was a liaison with, with Big Brother to say, "These poor people over here are starving to death, What are you doing?" And so he was able to bring some resources that was the beginning of the twentieth century for us. So, when Charles Wethington, there's always a little controversy. He was here for a year. We wanted Jim Chapman bad because it had been such a breath of fresh air and Charles Wethington says, "No." Anybody who had been appointed as an interim president can't apply for the position. So here's another one of these, you know, what is going on? SMOOT: That's kind of, that's kind of nonsense, isn't it? CHISWELL: It, it was, it seemed rather arbitrary at the time, and there was a lot of upset people--(Smoot clears throat)--uh, but Charles Wethington would not back down. So, Jim Chapman oversaw the, uh, application process where, um, Jim was, Jim Kerley was hired. SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --and ,uh, didn't hear anything wonderful about Jim Kerley, you know, over the years you have people at various kind, you know, network of people that you know, and he'd been at, what, Henderson or some place? SMOOT: Hopkinsville. CHISWELL: Hopkinsville, and so, people I knew down there, they didn't have anything good to say, nothing bad, noth-, just nothing, you know, I was like, oh no. Here we, we, we've lost Jim Chapman, and we're getting, you know, just another average administrator, but fortunately, I have been so pleasantly surprised. Jim has outshined all of them. He's, I don't know if you're experienced with him, but as far as support for, for what I have seen, he's fabulous. I, I tell him--(laughs)--that he must have an evil twin somewhere. He's out for breakfast meetings and he's here. I see him, and I'm talking to him at 7:30 in the morning, he's accessible. One day, you know, we got so much new funding coming into the college, I told his wife, I said, "You know, if he goes to jail, I'll go visit him. I will" (both laugh). SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: You go to him with ideas and, and, and, uh, previous presidents would kind of look at you like, "Are you crazy? We don't have any money for that." Jim Kerley basically says, "Come back and show me we need to do this. If you can, if you can prove to me we need to do it, we'll find the money." And that's how we've gotten into international education. I mean, it's just been so incredible, different. SMOOT: Yeah, and the place has really exploded in the-- CHISWELL: Yeah (??) SMOOT: --past couple years CHISWELL: Oh, it's exploded. SMOOT: --on just so many levels, speaking of which I, I guess I have to go back now to, to when you started again. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: And if you were going to tell somebody, you know, sort of give them a synopsis of the history, you know, the highlights of, of your experience here-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --the things that have been important, uh, the, the, the big changes, etc., what would you point to? How would you describe it? CHISWELL: Hmm, that's a good question. I don't know. There's just been threads, millions of little threads, like the garment, you know, like a, like a fine sown garment. It isn't, it isn't a couple little, I mean, it's not a couple big things. I can't, um, nothing, you know, just-- SMOOT: Nothing jumps out? CHISWELL: No, nothing big jumps out, just, I, I guess--(clears throat)- -the fact that we focus on teaching has meant that we get a lot of really, um, personable faculty that are good teachers. You know, which makes for, you know, really good camaraderie, and not that we're, I'm not very close friends with the, with, you know, people here in the college, 'cause I don't have time, and I don't think any of us have time for that, but there's a collegiality. There's a friendliness. There's a supportiveness, a cooperativeness. Um, even back in the days when we had no money--(clears throat)--there was no wrangling about, you know, um, within the division of trying to divvy up the pie and everybody needed something. It was always done with respect and sort of a cooperative spirit that, okay you guys are, you know, you're desperate this year. They're desperate next year. We're, we're coming up on accreditation. Our equipment's okay, our, it's our turn. And, um--(clears throat)--uh, it's just been a really refreshing place. I, you know, the, the expression when you, when you find a job that you love, you know, it's so rare, and that's, that's kind of the way it is. I, I, I think the students are getting a great education here--(Smoot clears throat)--our program has, um, just continued to blossom from what I didn't know back thirty years ago (??), and, and, and the smart people coming on board and, and, uh, the process with accreditations and, and, uh, just learning and realizing that we can do things better and, um, oh, it's just been a real blessing. I've just thoroughly enjoyed it. SMOOT: Okay. I've, uh, styled the history of Lexington Community College history, but building communities and changing lives-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --are there any instances that you would point to in your experience where we have been building communities-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --perhaps professional communities, um, people that are, uh, involved in, in working with your program or look to your program, uh, for, uh, people. Uh, anything along those lines that you would point to, or-- CHISWELL: Well-- SMOOT: --particular individuals? CHISWELL: --we, we take students from all across the state, um, we, I think we're very highly respected by the professional community. So we get some students, uh, who probably come from socioeconomic backgrounds that are not the strongest, and we provide them with an occupation where they can make, you know, thirty-five to forty thousand a year, with a certain amount of, um, I don't want to say prestige, but, but they have self-respect. They're, they're providing, uh, uh, something that people need. It's appreciated. They, they have a, uh, a job that they can enjoy. So I'm sure it has provided a better life for a lot of people, uh, and I look at the number of people applying to our programs. It's just continuing to go up, and, uh-- SMOOT: How many people are in the program right now? CHISWELL: We take twenty-four. SMOOT: All right. How long has that been in place? CHISWELL: We took sixteen until somewhere in the early nineties where the job market, Alan Edwards was here so probably about '91 or '92. The job market continues to increase, in fact there was an article in USA Today last week about, um, the occupations of the future, and, and they listed the top six or seven in a nice graph, and there was dental hygienist right there, you know, in like number five. The State Practice Act changed recently, which limited any dentist to two full-time hygienists. Now they can have has many as they want, and we're seeing that improving the job market significantly, uh, here in Lexington. So, we need to take more students, but it's a very expensive program to operate, with all the equipment and receptionists and, um, expendable supplies and space. Space is a big issue. So we're, we're trying to get it on the radar to maybe increase our s-, clinic from a sixteen-chair clinic to maybe a thirty-chair clinic to take more students. Now we've got the assisting program out on the central campus. We need to bring those two programs together--(Smoot clears throat)--and take advantage of the instruction to try to integrate them better. So, I'm trying to get Jim to look at maybe a, the library space when they move into the new building, but it's a very expensive proposition. So, they're, they're not too, I haven't convinced them yet, maybe I should put it that way (laughs). SMOOT: Okay. Are there other programs like this in the state? CHISWELL: There are five dental hygiene programs, uh, when we were part of the community college system, we were here, and there was one in the eastern part of the state that actually would stay in a, a small community college community for three or four years, graduate two or three classes, then it would pack up, lock, stock, and barrel, move from Ashland to Maysville to Hazard to Somerset to Prestonsburg, Cumberland--you said Southeast? SMOOT: Yes. CHISWELL: And then back to Ashland, it would just make the circuit, you know, every, every fifteen or twenty years. And so, we'd graduate, hmm, two years, it'd be about twenty to thirty hygienists would really saturate that area, then it would move. It was a really good idea. And then it was so popular, they created one in the west, started in Prestons-, excuse me, started in Paducah, went to Madisonville, Henderson, Hopkinsville. SMOOT: Hopkinsville (??)? CHISWELL: Uh-- SMOOT: Or did Henderson cover all that? CHISWELL: Henderson, yeah, Henderson covered Hopkinsville. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: The trouble with that was that it was very difficult to keep faculty because their moving from Hazard to-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --to, uh, Cumberland or whatever. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: So, when we s-, you know, when, when KCTS, KCTCS was formed, they decided to look at two things. Number one, the mobile programs and the problems of moving. Number two, the integration with the assisting programs, which were in the vocational part of the system. So they decided to do something rather revolutionary and integrate assisting and hygiene curriculum and put them at one site and then beam them by TV. So that's why, in fact, Prestonsburg is now a st-, um, stationary program, um, Henderson, no. Hopkinsville was the other one, and Prestonsburg started with a, with a site in Hazard, London and, um, Central Campus, and, in fact, to this day, they have four dental hygiene students right now at Lexington Leestown campus that are in the Prestonsburg Dental Hygiene program. So, when we joined together this year, it was like, ok, it's very confusing, our students don't know what's going on, patients don't know. So we're having to work all that out. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Um, so, it's kind of interesting, though, the, the, the TV is also a challenge. I taught their local anesthesia for them last year, uh, by ITV, and I was like, Oh my gosh--(laughs)--you'll lose a lot of that student contact because there's a three or four second delay, and the, you see the whole room, so you really can't see their faces clearly, and-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: There's one--(clears throat)--one site you're seeing and one site completely off camera, so you don't even know what's going on over there-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and you're trying to keep up with the material, but to make it interesting and interact with them, and to interact, you, you lose like five seconds, and sometimes they have to get up and move to a place where the microphone was, and so it really was a challenge to make it interactive and interesting. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: So, yeah. SMOOT: I, I'll call Dr. Bosomworth, he'll (??) tell me something about telemedicine-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --and bringing, you know, that, that, that technology to Eastern Kentucky-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --community, well, small community colleges, you know, not just Eastern Kentucky, and, and, yet, I have, I'd not talked so much, or talked to him about these challenges that you're referring to, and I would think they would be hard to, uh, to deal with. CHISWELL: Yeah, they're very challenging. Um, I do some, uh, consulting with the American Dental Association--(Smoot clears throat)--where I go out as a consultant for accreditation site visits, and I did one at the University of Pacific last year in, uh, San Fr-, actually, that's in, uh, Stockton, but their dental schools in San Francisco and their I, they have an ITV system, a lot of their faculty for the hygiene program are dental st-, faculty in San Francisco. Their ITV system was fabulous. I mean, it was almost instantaneous, you talk, I talk, and they could focus on somebody, whereas ours you can see one, but you could actually have multiple sites on it. So I'm hoping that that's what we'll get before too long. Because that would make it so much better. If you can literally see facial expressions, and you can interact in a fairly spontaneous way, it's so much different, and that's what ya lose, and that's, I don't know about other teachers, I'm sure there are entertainers, I mean, there are people that can stand up and, and their lectures are so entertaining that you're just absorbed in them, but I'm not, you know, I need to, I need to see facial expressions. I need to, basically, kind of read what you're thinking so I can figure out where we're going and, you know, I lost that, until I actually, I think I, I, I, you don't even know them. I mean, that's the hard thing. So I've, I realized fairly quickly I had to go to London one week--(clears throat)--and on my way to London, their ITV system went out, so they had to call me, as I was driving down the highway, and they said, "Ah, it's a shame that you're coming 'cause the TV's down and there's no sense in you coming", so I was like, oh gosh. So I never did get down there. I actually went, I went to Prestonsburg, and that was the end of the semester. And what a difference it was to go and say, here I am, and the students just were like oh yeah, you know, on the, on TV they're just kind of these deadpan things. You go, and you, you actually put a name with a face, and you know how that is in a classroom. SMOOT: Absolutely. CHISWELL: If they don't, if they don't, if they think you don't know them, then they don't care. SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Yeah. If you want to point to changes, you were talking about some of the big changes. CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: Uh, if you were going to talk about changes over the course of time that you have been teaching, uh, in, in dental hygiene-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --what would be the most important changes that have occurred in the education of dental hygienists? CHISWELL: Computers--(clears throat)--computers have changed everything. Wh-, when I came here, I literally had the attitude, I'm never going to learn to type--(Smoot laughs)--because I'll end up typing things, and I don't make a lot of money, but I make more, it makes no sense to pay me to type when there's somebody whose job it is to type, and you can pay that person less. We don't have anybody to type. When computers came along, secretaries became office managers, and they don't type, and so everything has evolved from that. Now that's also allowed us, though, to be a little bit more creative, I think. PowerPoint presentations, incorporations of videos, um--(clears throat)--material that--(clears throat)--that you can give to the, you can give them PowerPoint handouts--(clears throat)--they can access things you can put online now, um, I like-- [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: Okay CHISWELL: There was, uh, faculty from the University of, well, I guess Idaho State, and--(Smoot clears throat)--she has a assigned them, like, like we have journals occasionally, sometimes--(Smoot clears throat)--I think (Smoot laughs). She, and thi-, this is fairly traditional in, in dental hygiene, is students keep sort of uh, uh, an educational journal-- SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: --and, um, a lot of them tend to write, Oh I got to turn the journal in tomorrow, so they write, you know, the night before, and they tend to be sort of superficial, but with blogs you can keep track of exactly when they've done them, so you, so they're, you know, timeliness is, is better, and, and she says that they're really quite more thoughtful and what's happening that she's discovered is that students read each others' blogs--(Smoot clears throat)--and they'll get off on other educational things that you might never ever touch, but somebody will get interested in this and say, well I read an article about this-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --and I learned that-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: --and all of them are kind of learning, they're teaching each other. (Smoot clears throat) So I thought, well, that is really fantastic. SMOOT: You know that's taking it to a new level when they're-- CHISWELL: Yeah, it is, um, the downside--afterwards I grabbed her and I said, "It sounds really exciting, but are you crazy?" (both laugh) SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: I mean, I'm going to go back. So, I got back Tuesday, um, I had been gone, I left Wednesday. So I was gone Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of, of classes, and then Monday, Tuesday, it was Spring Break, so they're pretty down. I had, I don't know, two hundred emails, and so I'm still, I'm, I finally got through the emails this morning-- SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: I said, "How does one do this and have a life?" You know, if you're constantly interacting through email-like communications, which are, you know, running blogs are--(clears throat)--and she laughed, and she said, "Well--(Smoot clears throat)--I've got it organized in such a way that it's not so bad," and I'm like, yeah right--(laughs)--I know about your life, but it's, it, it's-- SMOOT: Insane (??). CHISWELL: --it, it, it's crazy. SMOOT: Well, plus I, you know, you have a limited number of students. CHISWELL: Yeah, I only have twenty-four students. SMOOT: Why, one class of mine is, is bigger than that-- CHISWELL: Yeah-- SMOOT: --you know. CHISWELL: You have five classes? SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: You know, and I try to learn everybody's name, too-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --you know, so I can personalize things and fortunately I'm very good with names, but, you know, when you have five classes, and, you know, four of them have forty, at least at the beginning, and thirty in the other one-- CHISWELL: Yeah, so you're close to two-hundred people. SMOOT: Yeah, per semester. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: It's certainly more challenging, that's where I, you know, I, I, I, for one, two, couple of y-, semesters anyway, maybe a little bit more than that, I did the, uh, web-enhanced tele-course in U.S. history ----------(??). I had far fewer students, but that was so labor intensive-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --'cause everything had to be done via computer that I, I, I didn't like it all. CHISWELL: Hmm. SMOOT: I mean, I like the personal contact-- CHISWELL: Yeah. Oh yeah. Me, too. SMOOT: --and, uh, uh, so. CHISWELL: Well, I think that we're going to get more web-enhanced and web courses. I mean, there's no doubt about that. SMOOT: Yeah. And they, and they have their place. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: But so does the, the traditional classroom. CHISWELL: Yeah, and I don't think in dental hygiene we're going to see the, the, it being replaced, because you need to look over their shoulder and watch them do things, and you need to in-, you need to watch how they interact with other people. And there's lots of things that you simply can't do, but there are things that we can communicate on the web and do a better job, maybe. Um, but, it's definitely coming, and they had a presentation, this was, this meeting was the American Dental Educators Meeting. So, I mean, it was dental schools and everybody. They had, what's coming is virtual people, I mean, where you're literally can work in their mouths. Um, about '95 I went to a conference, um, for the college on, you know, basically the technology that's coming was one of the subjects. They were predicting by now that we would have, you know, computer goggles like there, they would be as good as screens and you would have a little, you know, Walkman- kind-of-size, well, ----------(??), you know, the, uh, Macintosh, um, whatever those little gizmo, the, you know, the CD player new things. SMOOT: Yeah. iPods? CHISWELL: iPods, um, where you can get streaming videos. Um, they predicted that by like 2005 we would have classes taught in French, and you would be in a virtual university, universe, and you would be flying and land in Paris, and you would be seeing it on your goggles, and you would in-, interact literally with people who were also on your network like you were there. And you could see them, and they could see you, and you're sitting at home, you know, and, and, uh, and yet here, you're in France, and you're seeing and, and communicating, speaking. And I thought, that's amazing, and it's, it is coming. I mean, it's, they have streaming video, uh, on the iPods and a lot, a lot of them, like the University of Michigan Dental School, students can literally, all the video, their lectures are video-taped, and they can get them into their iPod, and so they can listen and watch on their computer, plug in their monitor, the material from the class. SMOOT: Hmm. Yeah, I guess that's better, but it's also the issues of, uh, copyright and, uh, that sort of thing-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --that's one thing that we've heard so much about in the past as well, but-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --that ties into that, but we won't get into all that (??). CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Changing lives, as, I mentioned that as another-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --theme of students, uh, that you've had. Can you name some of the outstanding students you had and, and the course of their careers, what, what they've done? I can think of one, Lou Sievers. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: You know-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --she's now my dentist-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --as opposed to a dental hygienist. CHISWELL: (clears throat) Lou was one of the very best manual skills hygienists I have ever seen. I mean, we, we taught expanded functions back then, that was the restorative part, back, way back when, and her work was just unbelievably good. So you got a good dentist. SMOOT: Yeah. I know that. CHISWELL: Um, yeah, we had, uh, one of our very first graduating classes, there was a, a gal named Barbara Gatey (??). Barb had been an assistant for, like, thirty years. She was probably, well, I want to say fifty, when she came in the program, but that might be a little bit old. She graduated, and she started working at the VA, and she was just one of these outstanding people that just had a professional interest in, you know, in others, I mean, I just love Barbara, she, outstanding. Marty Surbah (??). Marty (??) was accepted probably about, hmm, '85, maybe. She decided not to come because her son was starting college the same year. She thought it, there wa-, there was something with her son, maybe he was graduating from high school. So, she was accepted the next year, came in, just an outstanding person, outstanding clinician, worked for, um--(clears throat)--Star and Smith, basically talked them into a hiring of, they just had part time hygienists, talked them into hiring her, and then that whole practice changed, uh, became really, uh, tremendous reputation. Her husband, uh, was a pharmaceutical representative, had a heart problems, eventually had heart failure, had to have a transplanted heart, and he died on the table when they were doing the surgery, and, uh, so that was, you know, just one of those, um, sad things. Marty (??) just plugged right along, and a couple years later she met a, a veterinarian surgeon or some world-famous guy out of Texas, and now she lives in Colorado--(laughs)--I don't know what, I haven't heard from Marty (??) in a while, but, yeah, just some outstanding people-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --I mean, those, those are just a, I guess the ones that jump out, but there's a whole bunch of them that, you know, uh-- SMOOT: How about your faculty? CHISWELL: Uh, Marsha Krause was here when I was hired. She's, uh, she's on the faculty of the University of West Virginia Dental School, dental hygiene program. SMOOT: Well, that's West Virginia University. CHISWELL: West Virginia University, sorry about that. SMOOT: That's all right. CHISWELL: --has written, has written the text book that I use in dental materials now. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Um, Susan Collier Costich, was her name. She got married. Uh, she worked with us a couple years. Now, she's on the faculty at the University of Louisville, just got hired on. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Uh, Becky Hobbs wa-, was with us for a long time. Becky's husband graduated with a PharmD, and eventually they went on to North Carolina, haven't seen or heard from Becky in probably ten years. Eunice Blatty was on our faculty. She went on to be a associate president or a vice, what, what-- SMOOT: She was Dean of Academic Affairs. CHISWELL: Dean of Academic Affairs-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and then she came to her senses and went back to teaching (both laugh). SMOOT: Yeah, I think she'd probably agree with that. CHISWELL: Oh yeah. Well, she asked me, she said she was getting her PhD and when she got it, you know, she, she looked at that job under Alan Edwards, and she asked me what I thought, and I said, "I can't for the life of me wonder why you'd want it"--(both laugh)--but now that you have, you know, I guess she was getting her PhD, you know, I guess it's a natural step, and you'd be good at, you know, I mean, but it's a revolving door, it's, it's the job nobody, it's the job that, it, what you do is what the president doesn't want to do, and, so, you probably aren't going to want to do it either. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: So, she lasted just a couple years. Uh, she comes back and teaches a half day a week for us. Uh, last year, she didn't come back this year. I guess she's, she's, well, she's doing presidential, or vice presidential, searches and stuff like that, so she's busy. Let me think who else. Um, I guess the next one to come was Debbie Kelly. Debbie, uh, teaches, or, she's our first-year coordinator. Debbie's excellent, very concerned about the students. Janella Spencer came along shortly after that, I think. She was part-time for a number of years. She's our second-year coordinator. Janella's super. Um, and then Laura Justice came about, I don't know, eight or nine years ago. I just love Laura. Laura's got more personality. I, I remember her as a student--(clears throat)--looking at her notes. Her notes would be in a spiral, just almost as art. You know, you'd look at it and go, I could put this up on, you know, you, you could put this in a, in a, uh, frame, you know. (clears throat) She's got more personality, she's funny, uh, she's, she's our radiology coordinator, and she and I are going to go to Switzerland. She worked in Switzerland for a couple years, so we finagled our way to go over there and provide some continued edu-, education for the Swiss hy-, American hygienists in Switzerland in May. SMOOT: Yeah? CHISWELL: Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, I mean, what kind of opportunities would, uh, we, we get off more time, and I have friends who make a lot more money in, in dental, in dentistry, and they're like, "I could never be gone for two weeks or three weeks. I'm so envious," and I'm like, "There's tradeoffs-- SMOOT: Oh yeah. CHISWELL: --you know. SMOOT: There are tradeoffs. CHISWELL: Yep. That's what my wife and I like to do. We love to travel. We're going to take about three weeks. When we're in Zurich, we're going to travel back down to Italy. We haven't been to Italy since we left in '74, and then we're going to take a cruise on across the, the Dalmatian Coast in, uh, Greece, and a little bit of Turkey and back to Naples and then to Rome and see some friends in Rome for a couple days and then come back home. SMOOT: Sounds very nice. CHISWELL: It's, you know, it, it, it's, uh, a situation, uh, thi-, this, this has afforded us. I mean, uh, we don't, we're never going to make a lot of money, but we're not going to be poor, and we got some time. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Well, of course, the pay scales here vary and you're-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --a professional, so you, you do better than, than many others. CHISWELL: Well, and if you stay here thirty years, you'll make a fair salary-- SMOOT: Yeah, well-- CHISWELL: --and that, that's what. SMOOT: Well, I'm working on that (laughs). CHISWELL: Yeah--(Smoot laughs)--when I, when I came in '75 or 6, I was hired on at twenty-five thousand dollars a year, and that was more than most people being hired on, but they were making like eighteen or twenty, and so, over thirty years it just, you know, a little bit every year, just gets up there to where, you know, you're never going to be poor. SMOOT: That's good. CHISWELL: Yeah, yeah, just, just hang with it--(both laugh)--and pray for every once and a while to get a 4 or 5 percent raise. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: (clears throat) What was your impression of the separation of the community college from the University of Kentucky? CHISWELL: That was sad. Um, of course, emotionally, you know, I, I felt like, I mean, I felt like that was my arm over there, you know, and coming from the university and the med center, my initial hesitancy to come to the community college system in the first place, um, and, and I guess it's sort of a selfishness as well. I, I, I kind of felt like that we had a little bit more of an association of, of the, the, the prestige of the main campus, etc., and I think that it has been, um, chaotic because of the change. I think a lot of students want UK, and they don't want, uh, well I would-, I shouldn't say that. SMOOT: ----------(??)-- CHISWELL: It's not as much a negative about us as it is a positive about them, and when we were part of them, they, they could go and tell their friends, "I go to UK." SMOOT: That's right. CHISWELL: Now, they can't do that. SMOOT: Yeah CHISWELL: Yeah. Um, and I think the bureaucracy of it has been difficult, um, on a day-to-day basis, it, it doesn't impact much, but I think the, a lot of things have, have changed that have been difficult to cope with. I mean, like, we have more complaints about registration. Um, there, there's a lot of recordkeeping that's different, that's been screwed up. I know when I, um, the first year I stayed with UK, and then discovered that we weren't going to get any raise-- SMOOT: Yeah, I didn't sense that (??). CHISWELL: Yeah. So, but because we didn't re-, uh, well, I, I, see, I'd been long enough that I could have retired, and, and then everything would have been a neat package, and I'd retire at UK, because I didn't do that, this, the next year I thought, okay we're going to get screwed out of a 3 percent raise or whatever that was, I'm going to go ahead in October, so I'm going to go to UK, and I'm going to retire, and then, 'til October. Well, because I didn't retire in 2004, I really couldn't retire from UK. It all had to be done through KCTCS. So I did retire from UK, but UK doesn't know that. It's very weird. It's all, like if I call UK and say I retired in 2004, they look in the records, and they say we have no record of you retiring. It's all, it's like they have no records. It's all through KCTCS. So that meant, that means- -(clears throat)--um, that every time I want to do something, I have to go through this, we don't, we don't know who you are, we don't have any records of you, you left here in 2004, and you didn't retire. (clears throat) So I have to sort of go through the whole rigmarole of, I did retire, but it's through KCTCS. Now that has impacted us 'cause we got screwed out of a raise, but, um--(clears throat)--we had to change insurance companies, which was the reason I didn't want to go in the first place SMOOT: Me, too. CHISWELL: Yeah. It costs, it, on the UK HMO--(clears throat)--there was a bi-, when we got a 1 percent raise, basically that 1 percent went to pay for my wife's insurance, 'cause it was, uh, almost the same amount. So, I didn't do anything that year. It was a tradeoff. But, when we got 3 percent raise, we're going to lose some money. So, UK has a phased retirement plan. They pay, um, like, a full-time faculty member, only you get cut in half, but you get all your benefits. SMOOT: We did-, we have it, too. CHISWELL: Ah, KCTCS's phased retirement, they don't pay for your spouse insurance. SMOOT: Ah, I see. CHISWELL: So, you lose that. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: UK, you can do five years. KCTCS is on three years, which may be fine. Three years may be enough. (clears throat) But that's really what I'm looking at right now, is in 2007, is going on phased retirement, and when I discovered it came out that it's not the same as when you're full-time, you lose ben-, you lose a lot of benefits, particularly, they don't pay your spouse's insurance, I thought, that's not what I thought. SMOOT: No CHISWELL: You know? SMOOT: Yeah--(Chiswell laughs)--I don't think that would be, that it's always been represented-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --in an honest and open fashion-- CHISWELL: Well-- SMOOT: --I'll say that. CHISWELL: Yeah. I don't, but that's, I guess that's what I'm getting at. I don't think it's dis-, I don't think that anybody was being dishonest. I just think that people, there's so much confusion. SMOOT: Now, there's sins of omission and commission, right? CHISWELL: Yeah, yeah. There, there probably are some omissions, um, and some commissions, but there's a lot of things that people are confused about-- SMOOT: Sure. CHISWELL: --and so, there have been a lot little things that haven't gone as smoothly as they used to. SMOOT: Yes. CHISWELL: And, so, on top of that, there seems to be a, a growing discontent that we haven't seen in a long time SMOOT: Yeah, that's very unfortunate CHISWELL: Yeah, people in other programs that I rub shoulders with who haven't been here forever, have come and said, "You know, when I first got hired a couple years ago, I was, I was, this was just great, and now, you know, there's a lot of things, negative things, happening that are being manifested in peoples' attitudes, that I think is not good, you know," and I'm like, "Well, give it time, we're in, we're in a transition period." SMOOT: Um-hm. CHISWELL: Um, but, yeah, I think it has been negative. I mean, that's, I, I don't know in the long run, I hope it's not, uh, going to continue, but I think people are ex-, experiencing more frustration than we have in the past. SMOOT: Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to add or you think you should say about the history of the college, of LCC, you know-- CHISWELL: Well-- SMOOT: --'cause we're going to concentrate here, '65 to '05-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --the forty years-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --and, uh, it's actually LTI and LCC. CHISWELL: Yeah, when you said that I realized-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --um, actually, there was a big change when Otis Singletary was hired, whenever that was. Um-- SMOOT: Nineteen eighty-seven? CHISWELL: Eighties, was it '87? SMOOT: But Roselle came in-- CHISWELL: ----------(??)-- SMOOT: --'87, '88-- CHISWELL: -----------(??). Yeah. SMOOT: --and he was, he signed my docu-, my PhD, so-- CHISWELL: Ah. SMOOT: --and I graduated in '88, so I remember. CHISWELL: When Otis Singletary-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --retired, he basically threw--(clears throat)--everything up in the air, you know, as his part in, uh--(clears throat)--mark-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and he came in and said, "We're going to move you from LTI," which was just technical programs, and our students went across the street, took their history and their math and their English and their psych and their splosh (??)-- SMOOT: Right. CHISWELL: --soc, we're going to make you a full community college, which is when it became LCC. SMOOT: Which is when I--(clears throat)--I was first starting graduate school over there-- CHISWELL: Um-hm. SMOOT: --too. I started in '83-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --so yeah, yeah. CHISWELL: That, that was a transition period, but that turned out to be a very positive thing, because we started growing by leaps and bounds, you know, it was huge and, I mean, that was when we were getting 10, 15 percent, as I remember, increases every year ----------(??)-- SMOOT: Well, they went to selective--(clears throat)--admissions. CHISWELL: Uh, UK did. SMOOT: Yes. CHISWELL: Yes. SMOOT: That was a, that was a big part of it. Uh, but I, and I remember seeing, as a teaching assistant, you know, you could tell a difference and, you know, uh, and you see now, it's very much like when I started at, at UK, what we, what we have with students here, we have a much larger mix-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --you know, a much broader range as opposed to when they went to selective admissions, you cut out a range. CHISWELL: Yeah, well, that's true. It gave us a certain, it sort of-- (clears throat)--further added to that we're, we're UK-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --and it opened up more access here, and we started growing like crazy, and it wasn't too much longer--(clears throat)--that Jim Chapman came in and started getting, you know, caught up in equipment. SMOOT: Yeah, that was amazing, um--(clears throat)--oversight--Chiswell coughs)-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --for so many years not to have, what I've always considered, basic equipment, you know, and technological, uh, jumps that had taken place and was being ignored here. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Um, that was, that was truly a shame and, uh, I'm glad that he, he did something about it. CHISWELL: Yeah, and whoever initiated the technology fee, um, that has allowed us to remain really high-tech, because I look at other colleges that don't have that, and I'm going to cite ----------(??), for example, and some of them are just floundering, because they can't get new computers, as you know, I mean, they're just changing every six months, and doubling in capacities, and it's just, uh-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: --difficult to keep up. SMOOT: Yes, it is. CHISWELL: We don't have some sort of renewable source of income. So when I hear that KCTCS has said, you know (??), no fees, I'm thinking, that could be a problem. SMOOT: Yeah. Is there anything else you think should be mentioned regarding the history of the college? CHISWELL: Oh (??)-- SMOOT: Do you think we stack up well with other community colleges in Kentucky and elsewhere in the country? CHISWELL: Um--(clears throat)--I do. I, I feel really good about our history. I think, right now, we're, we're sort of in another sort of critical mode, and in a couple of years, it'll be easier to see whether we have just weathered the storm or whether we're actually on a decline, and I hope that it's the first. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: I guess, my guess is the first. Um, and that's going to depend a lot, I think, on KCTCS, how it goes. (clears throat) But, I think we are a super college. I mean, I, my own youngest daughter went here. Um-- SMOOT: Oh, I've had faculty from UK's children in my classes. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Well, you get smaller classes. SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: You get better teachers. If I had, you know, I've told you how I started out to be an engineer. The reason I didn't--(clears throat)--was I went to a small high school, I loved math it was a piece of cake, um, went off to Michigan State where I was in a math class with two hundred and fifty (??) guys, all wanted to be engineers. First class was a piece of cake, got into Calculus, never had Calculus before, most of the kids had Calculus in high school, and I'm like half way through the semester when all the sudden I realize I don't understand the relationship of these things, I can do the Calculus, but all the sudden I realize that I could do math because I could intuitively understand, you know, you can do simple things to, to round and come up very quickly with, you know, mathematical solutions. (clears throat) But with Calculus, sines and cosines and all these things, and you, and you'd manipulate them in this mechanical way. As it got more complicated, I realized, I don't understand how did they ever come up with this. So, as it got more complicated, it got less understandable, and at the end of the semester, I was like, what did Isaac Newton see that is the relationship of these things? So I walk into the third semester, and there's a, I'm in this, I'm in the balcony of another one of these gigantic classes, you know, auditoriums and the guy is on stage, and he says, "If you got a C in the last semester's class," which I did, he says, "You're going to fail this class," and I said, you know, I think you're right (both laugh). The point was, if I had gone to school here, I think I would understand the relationships, because the, the faculty who teach the Calculus are accessible, they're good teachers. I, when, when I consciously realized that I could have gone up to somebody and said, "Explain how this all works, you know, wh-, why, ho-, how did they come up with these things that, that I can do, but I don't understand", and y-, if you don't understand them as they get more complicated, it becomes, you know, where you, where you don't have, sort of see how it all fits together. And I, I met somebody years later who went to Berea who said, oh yea I had a great faculty, you know, this is, these relationship, and I thought if I'd gone here, I might be an engineer today, who knows. SMOOT: Interesting. CHISWELL: Yeah, 'cause it's teachers, and you have access to them, and they want you to learn. I mean, and you have a personal relationship with them as a comfort zone. The guy down on the stage, I never met him. He wouldn't know me from Adam. You know, if I saw him on campus, I'd probably go, hmm, he looks familiar, I wonder why (both laugh). Yeah, and I, and I had, for graduate assistants in, in, in the old labs, I mean, they were from India and Pakistan and China. I couldn't understand what they were-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: ------------(??) in my own language. SMOOT: Yeah. (clears throat) Actually, a lot of schools got in trouble for that-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --you know, not having, uh, TA's with competent English skills-- CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: --and, and rightly so. I think they should have to have those. CHISWELL: Sure. SMOOT: Yeah. Anything else you'd like to add? CHISWELL: I can't think of anything. SMOOT: Well, if you do, will you let me know, or send me email? CHISWELL: I will. Oh yeah, there's one other thing. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: When I first started teaching here, I could park right in the corner right over there. (both laugh) SMOOT: Yeah-- CHISWELL: Day-- SMOOT: --that's changed. CHISWELL: --day or night, I mean the front row is pretty crowded, but over here at this corner, you know. Boy, that, that tells you how things have changed. SMOOT: How many students were there here when you started? (clears throat) Approximately? CHISWELL: I'd say a thousand. SMOOT: A thousand. CHISWELL: Maybe. SMOOT: Okay. CHISWELL: Maybe. Give or take a-- SMOOT: Yeah, and how many do we have? CHISWELL: I would say twelve hundred, but that might not be right. SMOOT: Don't we have ten times that now? CHISWELL: Oh, easily ----------(??) twelve times-- SMOOT: Yeah. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Well, no-- CHISWELL: --and parking was, like, twenty-five to twenty bucks a year? SMOOT: Twenty bucks? CHISWELL: Twenty bucks a, maybe it was twenty, twenty bucks a semester SMOOT: Because I happen to think that the parking--(clears throat)-- ought to be free for faculty anyway CHISWELL: I know this is-- SMOOT: This is ridiculous, but that's just another little sore point. CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: We won't get into it now because we're going to say--(clears throat)--a fond farewell--(Chiswell laughs)--and, and, and close there, if that's all right with you, unless you had something else to add? CHISWELL: Just about the time we went to the community college, full- fledged community college, our parking jumped from, like, fifty bucks to, like, a hundred and eighty. I mean, it was like that. It was like, I think that was my first realization that things have changed. (laughs) SMOOT: Yeah, that, that's not a good change CHISWELL: Yeah. SMOOT: Anything else, Larry? CHISWELL: No SMOOT: Thanks a million. CHISWELL: And thank you ----------(??). That was enjoyable, sort of thinking back over all these years. SMOOT: Great. [End of interview.] In this interview, Larry Chiswell, a D.M.D. and professor of dental hygiene at Kentucky Community and Technical College System (KCTCS), discusses growing up in a military family, his college years, and the decisions and interests that ultimately led him to study at University of Kentucky's College of Dentistry. He discusses his compulsory military service in Italy after the Vietnam War and how he came to teach in the University of Kentucky's baccalaureate program for dental hygienists, and ultimately, in the associate degree program at Lexington Community College (LCC) in 1976. Chiswell discusses administrative changes in the top tiers of LCC and how these changes impacted him, colleagues, and students. In addition, he highlights how Kentucky's mobile hygiene programs were transformed once KCTCS was established and the important role that current technologies have played in this transformation. Chiswell also shares general thoughts on the creation of KCTCS, its challenges, its rewards. insert here