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Interview with Euell Sumner, December 17, 1991

1991-12-17 Interview with Euell Sumner, December 17, 1991 FF005:1991OH438FF176 01:22:30 Family Farm Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Farming -- Kentucky. Euell Sumner; Interviewee David Rotenizer; Interviewer audio Sumner_ff176 1:|31(16)|77(11)|88(6)|108(12)|116(27)|131(7)|158(9)|169(10)|203(39)|235(28)|271(2)|313(13)|348(3)|397(12)|429(18)|472(34)|498(2)|529(10)|549(22)|587(3)|613(15)|622(16)|653(19)|699(10)|737(12)|753(31)|784(14)|817(16)|855(4)|873(6)|894(22)|923(5)|929(38)|948(7)|969(16)|1007(12)|1025(37)|1065(19)|1085(40)|1123(6)|1132(2)|1138(25)|1152(22)|1173(13)|1187(17)|1235(20)|1273(28)|1307(2)|1342(5)|1367(17)|1417(2)|1457(18)|1494(7)|1545(2)|1573(13)|1609(6)|1635(19)|1673(11)|1704(3)|1720(2)|1755(9)|1822(2)|1845(14)|1882(16)|1908(10)|1932(33)|1952(15)|1982(3)|2033(20)|2060(15)|2097(1)|2119(3)|2148(5)|2168(16)|2194(33)|2220(16)|2259(29)|2296(14)|2342(4)|2387(28)|2423(3)|2457(8) audiotrans FamFarmKy interview ROTENIZER: This is the University of Kentucky Family Farm Project, Cane Creek study area. Today's date is December 17th, 1991, approximately 2:00 p.m.. David Rotenzier, interviewer, Euell Sumner will be the interviewee, and the interview is being conducted at the home of Euell's mother, . . . SUMNER: Helen Sumner. ROTENIZER: . . . Helen Sumner. Could you please state your full name? SUMNER: Carson Euell Sumner. ROTENIZER: Okay. When and where were you born? SUMNER: I was born here on this premises October the 5th, 1938. ROTENIZER: Okay. And who were your parents? SUMNER: Helen Sumner . . . Helen Wilson Sumner and Brian Sumner. ROTENIZER: Do you know where they are from? SUMNER: My mother was borned on this farm and my father originally came from Perry County. ROTENIZER: Perry County. You know where in Perry County? SUMNER: No, I don't. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I know the general vicinity, but not exactly where the place is located. ROTENIZER: Okay. Did your mother have any brothers and sisters? SUMNER: She had three brothers and three sisters. ROTENIZER: Do you recall their names . . . SUMNER: There was . . . ROTENIZER: . . . in order they were born. SUMNER: . . . I don't know about the order they were born, but . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . I think that Walter Wilson was the first child. Helen Sumner . . . or Helen Wilson was the second child, and Norma Wilson was the third. The fourth was Burl Wilson. The fifth was Von Wilson and [Myna?] Wilson was the younger. ROTENIZER: Okay. Do you by chance know the oc-. . . what the occupations were of your aunts and uncles . . . SUMNER: My . . . ROTENIZER: . . . of . . . of your mother. SUMNER: . . . my . . . let's see. Walter was the oldest. He was a farmer. He lived in the vicinity of Stanton for several years, then in the early nineteen and fifties he moved to--let me think just a minute [chuckle] here--he moved to Salem, Indiana, and he farmed there till he retired, and his wife just died and he moved a trailer which is located here in the front yard till he married again, and then he lived at Stanton till he became ill and then he went to Elizabethtown to the Mas-. . . Masonic Home where . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . he died there. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And how about on your father's side, aunts and uncles? SUMNER: Well, on my mother's side, her younger brother which was Von Wilson, lived here on this farm and farmed the farm till he died. And Burl was . . . he was in the Marine Corps and he came . . . he retired from the Marine Corps and came out and he was a barber at Ponta Gorta, Florida. Turn that off just a second. [Interruption in taping] ROTENIZER: All right. SUMNER: What was the question? ROTENIZER: Okay. We . . . we covered your . . . your mother's side then? SUMNER: We covered my mother's side. We covered the . . . the three boys and there was three girls in my . . . Norma, which . . . she is still living, lives in Montgomery County, and she was . . . raised fourteen kids on the far end of the creek up here. Then she . . . her husband died and she lives over there in her home. They sold the farm and she lives in Montgomery County. That's Norma. And [Myna?], she lived on the North Bend and they own approximate a thousand acres over there, and her husband was a farmer and he worked in woodwork . . . sawmills. And that . . . that covers my mother's side of the family. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: So on my father's side of the family, he . . . he had three . . . he had three sisters and three brothers. And Eli Sumner was . . . he retired from the railroad and died at Hazard, and then there was my . . . I had an uncle that . . . let's see. He was more or less a . . . I guess you'd call him the black sheep of the family. ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: He didn't do a whole lot of anything. He was from pillow to post, one thing to the ano-. . . another and then he died. He was quite young when he died. And, my dad, which was Brian Sumner, he . . . he worked at public works. And at one time the farm that is on the fork of Cane Creek, which is down there at where Charlie Shouse was located, . . . ROTENIZER: Umhmm. SUMNER: . . . they owned that land all in there. And when my grandfather died, they . . . they sold it and he . . . he worked at public works, he worked for Southern States for several years, and then he drove a truck till he retired, and two years after he retired he died of a heart attack here at this place. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. What, Stanton Public Works? SUMNER: Yeah, he worked for Southern States at Stanton and he worked for Rogers Building and Hardware Supply, and then the last five or six years he . . . he drove a truck when they built the Mountain Parkway and I-64 and 75. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Was he a part-time farmer? SUMNER: No, sir. He . . . ROTENIZER: Not at all? SUMNER: . . . was no farmer at all. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Really? SUMNER: He . . . I took farming up from my uncle which lived here on the place and . . . and me and him was . . . you know, we were like brothers. He was a lot younger than my mother and she more or less raised him, and he died here on this place. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. And . . . and your grand-. . . grandparents? SUMNER: My grandparents was Stanley Wilson, which she was a Willoughby. They were . . . they were local people. They were l-. . . they lived around on the Upper Cane Creek Fork. Then my father . . . I mean my grandfather and his brother came from Kansas. Now what part of Kansas they came from, I don't know. I've heard my great uncle talk about my grandfather and him. They farmed in Kansas, but he died in '33 and I was born in '38 so I didn't know anything at all about him other than hearsay. ROTENIZER: Did you ever hear if he was a farmer or . . . SUMNER: Yes, he f-. . . he farmed here on . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . this farm. Him and my uncle farmed and they built chairs and . . . and they had a gristmill. They ground meal and corn for people here in the local area. ROTENIZER: Now where was the gristmill located? SUMNER: It was located at the road. ROTENIZER: Okay, near where that log barn is? SUMNER: Right. It's within fifty feet of the barn. ROTENIZER: Between the barn and the driveway? SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: Okay. And how long was this gristmill in operation? SUMNER: I have no idea. I . . . I can vaguely remember the gristmill. It stayed . . . the mill itself stayed there till I was a great big boy. I was probably six or seven years old because I can remember when they came and got it. It was the old mill that had the engine in it where you poured the water in over the piston and . . . and that it was a pretty good size operation, you know, in those days. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Then you mentioned your . . . your grandfather making furniture? SUMNER: Yes, he made chairs and rocking chairs and made several of the chairs that are the bent-backs which . . . those in there are chairs he made with a . . . the hickory bottoms in 'em. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Where was his wood-. . . woodworking shop? SUMNER: It was located . . . I tore the building down here about four or five years ago. It was located about a hundred feet behind the house. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Was anyone else in your family involved in woodworking like that? SUMNER: No, nothing, only me as a hobby. I like to fool with it. ROTENIZER: Okay. All right. Now when you born, you were born in this house? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: You were born in this house, okay. SUMNER: I was borned in this house, and I was told that I . . . we stayed here about two years and then my father went to a . . . to a . . . I forgot this. He drove a Greyhound bus from Hazard to Lexington for several years, and that a way we could come and visit whenever we could ride the bus free and . . . and come down here. And then whenever I got of school age we moved back, and we stayed here for several years and then we moved in the house that Douglas Morton owned up here, and we also lived in a house which has been tore down around on Upper Cane Creek . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . right at the forks of the road. ROTENIZER: So from the time you were born until you were two years old you lived in this house here? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: And what was your father's occupation then? SUMNER: He was . . . he was driving a bus . . . ROTENIZER: The bus . . . SUMNER: . . . at that time. ROTENIZER: . . . at that time, okay. SUMNER: Because he quit farm-. . . he farmed one year, and then he . . . he gave up farming and he didn't have anything to do with farming. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Okay. That was the first year you . . . you were here or . . . SUMNER: No, that was before I was born. ROTENIZER: Before you were born? SUMNER: Uh-huh. ROTENIZER: Okay. And then lived here for two years. Was anyone else living here when you were born that you've been told? SUMNER: Yes, sir. My . . . my uncle, which was Von Wilson which was the younger boy, and my grandmother and my great uncle. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. And how . . . how was that arranged in the house here? SUMNER: It was basically the [chuckle--Rotenizer] same. ROTENIZER: I . . . I mean who . . . who slept where, what rooms? How was that . . . SUMNER: Well, the . . . my uncle always slept in the back room back . . . back there, and my . . . my grandmother, she slept in this other bedroom, and then . . . ROTENIZER: First floor, okay. SUMNER: . . . and then we always slept upstairs. ROTENIZER: The rest of the family did? SUMNER: Uh-huh. ROTENIZER: Okay. Was your bedroom the . . . the one off to the . . . SUMNER: Well, yeah. ROTENIZER: Okay. Okay. SUMNER: When I was small we . . . there was two beds in that room, and me and my mother and father slept in that. ROTENIZER: Okay. All right. Okay, after two years of here your . . . your first life, you . . . the family moved to Lexington? SUMNER: No, sir, they moved to Hazard. ROTENIZER: To Hazard, okay. All right. And they were in Hazard how long? SUMNER: I . . . I don't . . . I couldn't truthfully tell you exactly how long they were there because I . . . I know that we moved back here the first year that I went to school, and due to the fact that I was born in October, I was seven years old before I could, you know, legally . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . start in school. And . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . we lived here for, I don't know, two or three years, and then we moved around on the other creek, which is Upper Cane Creek, and we lived there from . . . I guess we lived there till nineteen and fifty. I remember that because my father bought a new '50 Chevrolet and [chuckle] I . . . I can relate back to that as far as time's concerned. And then in '5-. . . '52 we moved back to Douglas' house up here which didn't belong to him at that time, and we lived there till I graduated from high school. ROTENIZER: Okay. So from Hazard you came back to this house briefly . . . SUMNER: Right. ROTENIZER: . . . and then up on Upper Cane Creek. SUMNER: Right. ROTENIZER: And from there to the house that Douglas Morton used to own which . . . SUMNER: Right. Yes. ROTENIZER: . . . which Mike Reed owns now? SUMNER: No. ROTENIZER: No? SUMNER: . . . Douglas still owns that house, I guess. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: Unless he sold it and, you know, I haven't talked to him . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . in several months. ROTENIZER: Okay, the house on . . . on Upper Cane Creek, can you describe that house? SUMNER: Well, it was a small brick-siding house. It was five rooms. It was about a hundred and fifty feet up the Lower Cane Creek side on the right side. You can still see part of the wood there. It's been tore down. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. You say brick-siding. That's asphalt brick-siding or . . . SUMNER: That asphalt, yeah. It's the . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . tar paper, whatever. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And you were going to school. Did you go to just one school here in the . . . SUMNER: No, sir. ROTENIZER: . . . creek? SUMNER: I went to several schools. There was . . . there was school . . . I started at Rosslyn. I went to the . . . now, you'll have to let me think on this one. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I went to the . . . the fourth grade at Rosslyn, then there was another school that was located on the road going to Bowen. I can't think of the name of the schoolhouse. There's a brick home that's built up on the hill there. I went there for one year, then I went to the sixth and seventh grade to the school that's on Lower Cane Creek . . . ROTENIZER: Right. SUMNER: . . . that's up on the right approximately a mile from here . . . three quarters, something like that. Then from there I went to . . . back to Rosslyn . . . no, I went up there to the sixth grade, then I went to Rosslyn to the seventh grade, then I went to Stanton and . . . ROTENIZER: For High School. SUMNER: . . . and we walked to this school up here when we were . . . were going there. 'Course, then they got the buses and, you know, we . . . we got to ride. ROTENIZER: And that was when you were in Stanton . . . SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: . . . in the high . . . high school? SUMNER: I went to Stanton. I went to . . . to high school at Stanton . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . and graduated there. ROTENIZER: And how come you were moving from so . . . so many different schools? What . . . SUMNER: Friend, I don't know. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: The thing . . . the thing about it was that . . . my understanding was that the school systems, they were getting overcrowded, and they had closed some of these one-room schoolhouses up, and they got so many kids in the school system at Rosslyn that they would say, you know, "From a certain location to a certain location, you will go to that school this year." And then, "If . . . if you're a certain grade you go to this school," . . . ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: . . . and it was . . . I guess it was the convenience of being close because if the school teacher . . . you know, if she didn't have something to drive, you walked. ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: And, of course, when you was young, you know, it didn't bother you because you'd get out and run through the creeks and the woods and things anyway, so . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . it . . . people talk about it being, you know, so inconvenient but it was taken for granted because you didn't know no better. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Yeah. Okay. Did . . . did your parents go to school? SUMNER: My father went to . . . I think he went to the sixth grade, and my mother went to the eighth grade. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. When you were going to school, I guess, your . . . your . . . your parents supported you going to school . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: . . . and everybody . . . and helped you with homework and so forth? SUMNER: That's right. ROTENIZER: Okay. And when your . . . and . . . okay, when your f-. . . when you left Hazard and came back to this location, your dad was still a bus driver for Greyhound? SUMNER: Yes, sir, then he . . . at . . . from that point he started working at public works locally. ROTENIZER: Okay, when you moved to Upper Cane Creek? SUMNER: Yeah. And there . . . I . . . I missed there a few things. He . . . he ran a lumbermill for E.C. Smallwood at Stanton for several years that I didn't mention, and once he left there he went to work for Stanton Farm Supply at Stanton. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And he worked there for, I don't know, twelve, fourteen years. I'm . . . I'm doing a lot of guessing on this [chuckling] time frame, . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . but he . . . he didn't . . . you know, he didn't enjoy farming or he . . . he would help me if . . . if . . . I raised tobacco when I was in high school and . . . and, you know, he would go out on occasions and help me work in the tobacco, but as far as him being a farmer, he had no desire to farm. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. So you . . . you took agricultural classes in high school? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Any in particular or . . . SUMNER: Well, I . . . I . . . I took agriculture and that . . . we had . . . at that time we had one of the best farm shops in the State of Kentucky and I was . . . you know, I was interested in woodworking and the metalworking. And then after I got out of high school I worked for six months for Bundy Tubing, and then I went . . . the fourth and the twenty-first of 1958 I went to work for IBM and worked till I retired. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. The . . . the house in Hazard, did your dad own that or was it rented? SUMNER: No, sir, it was a rented house. ROTENIZER: Okay. Have you ever seen the house? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: What . . . what does it look like? SUMNER: It was a . . . it had apartment buildings and, you know, it was . . . it was sectioned off. There were four or five . . . I say four or five, there were several people lived in one huge building. ROTENIZER: Okay. It was an apar-. . . apartment then at . . . okay. And do you remember who he may have rented from on Upper Cane Creek. SUMNER: I . . . no, they . . . we didn't rent around there because he was in demand to run this mill that they had, and we lived on this man's place free of charge. ROTENIZER: And ran his mill? SUMNER: Yeah, he ran it. ROTENIZER: And what . . . what . . . who was this? SUMNER: E.C. Smallwood. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: He had a huge sawmill. Well, his sons ran the sawmill and my father ran a planing mill there just when you get into Stanton, and it was a huge operation there. ROTENIZER: Okay. So he had ex-. . . extra land and a house and . . . SUMNER: Yeah, and we lived there and my father drove his truck and . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . and did the work there. ROTENIZER: Okay. And then your father purchased the land up here where Doug Morton . . . SUMNER: No, sir, he didn't purchase the land. We lived on that land. It belonged . . . at that time it belonged to Hugh Tipton, and I was interested in . . . in farming and, of course, I was in high school and we . . . me and my uncle took care of his . . . his farming program and raising his tobacco and everything. And I don't know anything about the details of whether it was rented or what it was because I wasn't really concerned, you know. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. And then you lived there until your grandfather passed away? You . . . you were in the house up here, the Doug Morton place. When did your family come back . . . back here? SUMNER: My fa-. . . my family came back here in about '5-. . . let's see, '57 or '58, and my mother came here to . . . to take care of my . . . my uncle, which my great uncle and my grandmother had passed away and we lived here with him. Or they did, then when I graduated from high school I . . . I went into the army in . . . well, I started work in '58 and then I went to the army in '62, and I took a leave of absence, or they gave me a leave of absence from the plant, and I worked there till December of '90. ROTENIZER: Okay. And so from '58 until '62 you were working at Bundy Tubing? SUMNER: No, sir. I worked six months at Bundy Tubing. ROTENIZER: Six months. And that was when you . . . you left high school? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. All right. And then where did you g-. . . where'd you go after the six months to work? SUMNER: I went to IBM and I worked there the rest of my career. ROTENIZER: Okay. Now when does the army . . . did the army take place before IBM? SUMNER: No, sir. They gave me a leave of absence from IBM when I went into the . . . I joined the Reserves in '6-. . . '61, I guess, and then I was called up to Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, spent a year down there. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: Then I came back. Of course, my job was waiting. I got married in '62. I got married before I got out down there, and then I lived . . . I've lived at Stanton ever since. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. Well, what did you do in the army? SUMNER: I was a Drill Sergeant. ROTENIZER: You were a Drill Sergeant? SUMNER: Umhmm. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: Advanced Infantry Training. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And you were in there for . . . SUMNER: I was . . . I was in there a year. See, I was in the Reserve . . . ROTENIZER: Right. SUMNER: . . . and I was called . . . I went in for six months and took my training, then I came out and then we were called back as a group and we spent a year down there. ROTENIZER: Okay. Which group is this? What was your . . . what's your unit? SUMNER: It was the 100th Division. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: 400th Regiment. ROTENIZER: Okay. All right. And once your, what, six month . . . six . . . six year enlistment was up you got out . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: . . . Reserves? SUMNER: Uh-huh. I went to camp on several occasions and as soon as my time was up, I got out. ROTENIZER: Then you stayed in there while you were working at IBM. SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. A good source of supplemental income and all. Umhmm. All right. When you came back here, n-. . . there's no . . . there's no farming going on here after your family left the Morton place to come here? SUMNER: Yes, sir. My uncle was still farming this place and due to the times that I wasn't in the army, me and him was, you know, renting tobacco ground and . . . and farming. We had three different places that, you know, that we took care of the tobacco. ROTENIZER: How . . . how many acres here on this farm? SUMNER: There's . . . it calls for a hundred acres, more or less. ROTENIZER: Hundred acres more or less? SUMNER: That's what the [chuckle] deed calls for. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And that you . . . you were growing three plots of tobacco? SUMNER: Yes, sir. We . . . we growed the tobacco up here. I think we about an acre and a half up there and I had a half acre to about three acres and half of tobacco. 'Course, I was helping him part-time while I was, you know, working. This was on weekends and after work. ROTENIZER: Okay, and this is working where? Where were you working? SUMNER: I was working at IBM. ROTENIZER: At IBM, okay. When your family first moved here from the Morton place, what other kind of farming was going on here besides tobacco? SUMNER: Why he was raising his tobacco and had a couple of milk cows, and they raised their hogs for . . . to kill or meat, and that was about all that . . . that went on. ROTENIZER: And how about the outbuildings that are here? They . . . have they always been here? Around back behind you have a smokehouse, an outhouse? SUMNER: Yeah, they've . . . they've been here ever since I can remember. You know, when they were built, I have no idea. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And there's only one of 'em that you've torn down, and that was . . . that was a woodshop you said? SUMNER: I tore the woodshop down. No, I've torn another building down. There was a log . . . I guess you would call it a crib that was made out of hewed logs . . . ROTENIZER: Oh! SUMNER: . . . that was located out here, and it was . . . it had deteriorated and rotted down and we disposed of it. That's been probably, I'm going to say, twenty-five, thirty years ago. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And that's off to the side here . . . SUMNER: Yes. ROTENIZER: . . . where the driveway is? SUMNER: It . . . it was just to the right of my barn there. ROTENIZER: Okay. And you were married in what year? SUMNER: I was married in '62. ROTENIZER: 1962. SUMNER: February the twenty-first, I think it was. ROTENIZER: Okay. Where did you meet your wife? SUMNER: I met her at Stanton. She came from Clay City. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Do you know what . . . what her fam-. . . what kind of work her family did? SUMNER: Her dad was a . . . he was a carpenter and he also was an electrician and plumber. He built a lot of houses around at that time, and then he worked construction work. ROTENIZER: Any part-time farming? SUMNER: Yes, he pittled. He still does. He's had seven or eight by-pass heart surgery and he still has got his ten or twelve cows and . . . and got his farm and . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. And when you got married . . . at that time you were living here before you got married? SUMNER: Yes, sir. I was . . . I was in the army when I got married. ROTENIZER: You . . . you had been activated for . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir, I had been activated and I didn't get out til March or April, I think it was. I'm not for sure on that date. But I got married in February, and when I came back I . . . I rented till . . . oh, about six months at Stanton and then I bought the house I live in now from my father-in-law, which he had built when he was building these houses. ROTENIZER: Okay, this is right after you got married then . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: . . . you . . . within six . . . SUMNER: Absolutely. ROTENIZER: . . . months of renting you moved into your own house. SUMNER: I bought my own home. ROTENIZER: Okay. And you've had that ever since. Okay. And while you were working at IBM when you got married, correct? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. Were you engaged in any kind of part-time farming then? SUMNER: Yeah, I was . . . I was actively, you know, helping my uncle and raising a little tobacco crop and starting to build on my equipment. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. What kind of equipment did you start out with? SUMNER: I've . . . I've still got it. ROTENIZER: What was that? SUMNER: I've got '40 John Deere, and I've got the biggest part of equipment for it, and it's . . . it's up there in the barn. It'll still run. And we . . . we worked around here and worked for other people and, you know, in a small community like this, you . . . you helped other people and they helped you. And there was no money exchanged. You was a helping somebody, and then when you got ready to house tobacco they would help you, and . . . and that's the way you worked it. It's not like it is now. You know, you got a transaction of money anytime that somebody helps you, where back then you didn't have. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. What kind of . . . with . . . with . . . with your farming . . . part-time farming in addition to your work at IBM, what . . . what else did you do in terms of farming? SUMNER: Well, I . . . I raised some cattle and . . . ROTENIZER: What kind of cattle? SUMNER: I had Angus cattle and . . . well, I had Angus cattle when I went into the army, but due to the fact that when I went to the army I had to get rid of 'em because I . . . I wasn't here to take care of 'em so I sold 'em. And then I came back and I started artificial inseminated Semintal cattle and that's when I . . . I started from scratch and I worked on that ever since. ROTENIZER: About how many did you start out with? SUMNER: I started out with . . . I don't know. I think I had, I'm not for sure, four or five, something like that, a small line. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And what other kind of livestock? SUMNER: I've . . . I haven't had anything since I've . . . I've started fooling with . . . with Semintal other than the [Blondie Equitane?], the French breed of cattle that my daughter has over there. She has one she had when she was growing up, and now she's . . . ROTENIZER: Kind of a pet? SUMNER: . . . married and I still keep her cattle and her horses. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. You want to stop here for a few moments? SUMNER: Yeah, you might as well. That's a . . . [Interruption in taping] ROTENIZER: Well, let's go back to where you are living in . . . in this household here. What was the source of heating when you were growing up, or the various times you were here? SUMNER: It was . . . we got . . . we burned coal and . . . and wood till the late '40s or early '50s, I'm not for sure which, that they brought natural gas through here, and then we've had natural gas ever since. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. How about family reunions with your family right here? SUMNER: Yeah, they . . . back when the older generation, which is deceased now, they had a June meeting every year and they congregated at the graveyard and had big meals and everybody brought a dish and . . . and that's where that . . . I can relate back to that is . . . is a lot of the history that I'm telling you about because, you know, I had heard people talk about there. But the . . . like I said, there's only one of my mother's people that is living, which is her sister, and my father's people never migrated into here. They . . . they were all over, out of state and everything, and they never came in. But the . . . the Wilsons, they . . . they had a reunion year every year. And . . . but, like I say, after my mother has died and my aunts and uncles, they don't . . . they didn't have any last year. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. How about holidays? Did your family take part in holidays, Fourth of July, Halloween . . . SUMNER: Well, Christmas and Thanksgiving was . . . we'd have a big cookout or, you know, big meal and they'd get together. ROTENIZER: Come to this house here and do that? SUMNER: Yeah, up till, say, ten years ago and then they would come to my house and we would go to my wife's father's and mother's house. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. When you were growing up, if you got sick, would you go . . . where . . . where'd you go to the doctor? SUMNER: The big white house that's located just on this side of Charlie Shouse's which is Charles Faulkner's now, Doctor [S.T.] Scrivner was a doctor that lived there, and he had his office there in that big house. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I was sick on very few occasions. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And he had been a doctor most of your life growing up? SUMNER: Well, no, he was my doctor till I got up to where I was probably twelve years old or something like that, and then there was Dr. [Harrison Holman] Howell which moved into Stanton down there and we went to him. And after him there was Sam Cecil which is down there now, and that was the doctors that we went to if a doctor was needed, but in most cases we were pretty healthy. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Did your mom use any home remedies or anything? SUMNER: Yeah, she used a lot of home remedies. She'd mix up things that my grandmother had told her about and, you know, you was . . . you didn't have a whole lot of money to spend to go to the doctor when you was growing up. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Your . . . your grandmother knew a lot of home remedies? SUMNER: Yeah, she would go out and get herbs and all different things to make medicine for a cough. ROTENIZER: Do any of them come back . . . come to mind, like what she may have done or . . . SUMNER: Now, I never was too interested in 'em. I always hated to take 'em. [Chuckle] I didn't . . . I . . . I don't know any . . . you know, any recipe for what . . . what your making. ROTENIZER: Did your mom have a home garden? SUMNER: Yes. ROTENIZER: Did she do a lot of canning? SUMNER: Yes. ROTENIZER: And, what, pretty much wherever you've lived, she's always . . . SUMNER: She's always canned. ROTENIZER: And she's always had a home garden? SUMNER: In fact, the year . . . last year she canned probably fifty quarts of beans and gave 'em to the neighbors when she didn't eat 'em herself. ROTENIZER: Geez. How old was she? SUMNER: She was eighty-four. ROTENIZER: Geez. Umm. Well, what kind of stuff did she like to grow in the garden? SUMNER: She grew everything. She grew potatoes and corn and beans and broccoli. Just anything that we could grow in this location, she'd grow it. And stick her own beans. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Well, growing up, being the only child that you had, I guess you had to split your duties up between helping your mother and helping your father with chores? SUMNER: Yes, I had the chores. We would . . . when I was smaller and before we got gas, we had wood to get in and coal to bring in and cows to milk and mules to feed and . . . ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Well, not having a sister, did . . . did your mother do all that by herself, or did you help her with . . . with things that normally a sister would help with or . . . SUMNER: Well, I helped her with what she told me to help her with but, I mean, you know, being . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . a boy, you . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. Help . . . help your dad more. SUMNER: . . . you do . . . you do what you . . . you're told to do and you know that you've got jobs to do like getting in the firewood or getting the coal or going to the barn and milking before you went to school. I mean, that was taken for granted. You didn't . . . you didn't say, "Well, you know, am I going . . . am I going to have to milk this morning?" You knew when you got up you went to milk. It was understood. ROTENIZER: No questions asked, . . . SUMNER: That's right. ROTENIZER: . . . I guess. Umhmm. Well, where . . . growing up, I guess, living here in Cane Creek area, the three different places, where did you all do your shopping, that you could trade, and where did you go? SUMNER: Stanton. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. You didn't use the stores around here or . . . SUMNER: Well, they were . . . there was some small stores but, you know, if it was a have-to case, you . . . you . . . if you went by the store and you had a nickel you bought you something to drink, but other than that my father and my mother took care of the a . . . getting the groceries. I wasn't involved with that. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And that was all in Stanton to your knowledge? SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: Did your dad always have a car? SUMNER: He always had a vehicle of some kind. ROTENIZER: Okay. Do you remember what . . . what he might of had? SUMNER: Well, he . . . when he drove the truck for Smallwood, he had a truck that he drove and he used it just like it was his. They furnished him a truck, and he was fortunate in that case, and then in nineteen and fifty he bought a new '50 Chevrolet, and from '50 to . . . he bought a '64 Chevrolet and from '64 . . . I sold his old car after he died. ROTENIZER: What kind of car was that? SUMNER: '64 Chevy. ROTENIZER: Okay. Okay. Did your dad do his own repairs or did he take 'em into town and have 'em done? SUMNER: He did his own repairs. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Is that how you learned about auto mechanics . . . SUMNER: Right. ROTENIZER: . . . like that? Okay. SUMNER: And he was better in math than most school teachers that I . . . ROTENIZER: Really? SUMNER: . . . went to school to, 'cause he could figure in his head. He could figure lumber in his head by the board foot just by loading the truck 'cause he'd had so much experience at it. ROTENIZER: It was like second nature to him, and all? The barn out here in . . . in front we're looking at, tell me what you know about it? SUMNER: Well, about all I know about it is that back in the late . . . I guess it would be in the late '40s, there was a . . . there was a log barn there, and my uncle built the other barn around it which you can see over there and it's got his initials cut in the . . . in the logs, and my grandfather's initials were cut in the logs. But what that was was the . . . I . . . they . . . they kept mules in there and they . . . they also had a "A" over the top of it that was kind a loft where they stored their . . . their corn that they took . . . they took corn . . . they didn't take money. When they ground the corn they took a toll from the corn, and they . . . they stored that up there, and then if you would want to come by and buy, if you had money to buy it, they would sell the . . . the meal to you or sell the corn to you or whatever. ROTENIZER: Okay. Just hold on one moment, please. I need to turn the tape over. . [End of Tape #1, Side #1] ROTENIZER: Okay. Okay, starting back here around the farmhouse, during our break you were telling me about the well. Could . . . could you repeat that again about what you were telling me about the well around back? SUMNER: Well, the well is a . . . it's a hand-dug well and it's a . . . it has got rock that has been laid from the soapstone up in the well. Now, when the well was dug, I have no idea, but it . . . it's a man-dug well and it's approximately thirty-five feet deep and it's dug into the soapstone. And it has never gone dry to my knowledge, and I use it for setting tobacco 'cause I know that I don't get any chemicals or disease like I get out of the creeks and the ponds. But it . . . it's a good water source. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And you mentioned a lightbulb for keeping it from freezing? I've never heard of that. That's . . . SUMNER: Yeah. We . . . we put a hundred watt lightbulb in the enclosure which is brick, and the heat from the bulb and the heat that is radiated from the ground and the water keeps it from freezing. Because at the water level the water never freezes in the well because it's so deep and you don't . . . you get the temp-. . . the ground temperature warms the pump plus the heat of the bulb does the job. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Was . . . and . . . and the enclosure was built in 1960, the brick enclosure? SUMNER: There was another concrete-poured enclosure and we put that one in there. We had to tear it out because it cracked and we replaced it. I think the dates on it was 1960, yeah. ROTENIZER: Okay. Now when you . . . when you were growing up, what was over the . . . over-lying the well? SUMNER: Nothing. We drew it up with a bucket because we didn't have electricity. And there was a metal pipe that went across the top of it, and you had a well bucket and a pulley and a chain and you pulled the water up and dumped it into your existing bucket. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And . . . well, there was . . . I said there wasn't anything, there was a cover that they kept over to keep the chickens and things out [chuckling] of it. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. During our . . . during our break you mentioned that there used to be a bucket in the very bottom to collect sediment? SUMNER: Yeah, we had . . . they had a bucket in the bottom of it where they had dug into the soapstone, and they would put that down there, and then when you . . . they would dip all the water out of the well and they would pick the bucket up to remove all the sediments and stuff that was in there and replace it with a new bucket because the bucket would be rusty at the time that they . . . that they took it out. But there's a hole in the soapstone that's the size of the bucket. ROTENIZER: Okay. Okay. [microphone interence] And there's an outhouse around back. How long was . . . was that used before you went to an indoor restroom? SUMNER: I don't know. It was . . . of all the times that . . . that I lived here growing up, there was a . . . an outbuilding. ROTENIZER: Same general location? SUMNER: No. It was . . . it was lower down farther away from the house. That one that's . . . the building itself is old, but they . . . where it is located now, we just use it on occasions when we're up here in the wintertime that we keep the . . . it's just something that's sitting out there [chuckling] for people to look at, more or less. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: It . . . it's not used very often at all where it's located. Of course, it's . . . it's a hole about six feet in the ground. ROTENIZER: About six feet in the ground? About how wide is that hole? SUMNER: I don't know. It's probably four by . . . three by five, six feet deep. ROTENIZER: Okay. But when you were growing up, usually the . . . the outhouse was off to the side of the house . . . SUMNER: Yeah. It was . . . ROTENIZER: . . . about where the parking area is? SUMNER: . . . it was . . . no, it was located down pretty close to where my barn is. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: They had a long way to go. ROTENIZER: Okay. Now when you were growing up, was . . . was there a fence around the yard? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: What kind of fence? SUMNER: It was a plank fence with No. 9 wire, and it had honeysuckle around it. ROTENIZER: Was there a fence there before that, plank fence . . . SUMNER: If there . . . if there was it was before my time. It was out of split boards that they wove in No. 9 wire. They would push the wire to one side and cross it and put a board down in, and then they'd cross it back the other way. ROTENIZER: Okay, that's called plank fencing? SUMNER: Plank fencing. ROTENIZER: Okay. And it went around the entire yard? SUMNER: Yes. ROTENIZER: Okay. If you don't mind, could you on this piece of paper, draw me a sketch map look . . . looking down on top of the farmstead, where . . . where the house was and just draw in here just where things used to be when you were growing up, as best you can remember? SUMNER: Turn that off. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: I'm going to screw this up. [Interruption in taping] Do you want the barn up here and . . . ROTENIZER: Yes, everything you can think of. SUMNER: Okay. We've got the . . . the . . . the barn which is located here. The . . . ROTENIZER: And when was that barn built? SUMNER: I have no idea. I would say that it was built somewhere near the time that this house was built. Now it could have been built prior to that . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . because the old house was across the road and they could have that for a source of . . . of . . . where they put their cattle and stuff. Now this here is the location of the shop, which was . . . the shop was approximately fifty feet long. That's where my grandfather made these chairs . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . and stuff. And then we come . . . ROTENIZER: Do you by chance know where he learned to make furniture? SUMNER: No, sir. I know very little about him. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I could . . . I . . . to this day I don't know what killed him. ROTENIZER: Really? SUMNER: I don't know . . . he died quite young. ROTENIZER: Okay. I'll cut the tape off here and let you work on the map a little bit and then we'll cut it back on. [Interruption in taping] Okay, so we have the house, and you say the outdoor toilet was about two hundred feet from the house? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And you'd go down there and you'd do your business and you'd get back to the house quick. ROTENIZER: Okay. [Laughter--Sumner] All right. SUMNER: But . . . I didn't know you had that on! ROTENIZER: Oh, it's okay. SUMNER: But the . . . and then located just on the other side of it there was the old log building that they s-. . . they told me that back years ago that that's where they . . . they had it for a crib where they put their corn. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: But that is . . . that is the only real old buildings. That . . . this other building out here was built in 1960. ROTENIZER: Which building is that? SUMNER: The little garage out here. ROTENIZER: Okay. And where is that on this map, [inaudible] dash line or something. SUMNER: That would be located . . . well, see, there's the chickenhouse and it's located right back there which would be in this vicinity here. And those two little houses that are located . . . let's see, but they're together back behind the chickenhouse. Now that's the way it originally was, you know. ROTENIZER: Okay, could you mark these, just [inaudible] that's a crib. SUMNER: Crib. How do you spell crib? [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: C-R-I-B. SUMNER: And . . . ROTENIZER: About how big was that crib? SUMNER: I would say that it was prob-. . . probably . . . it wasn't over six or seven feet wide but . . . 'cause they built the cribs quite narrow because when they put their corn in there they wanted to get an air space and they built 'em narrow and long. I would say it was probably six feet wide . . . maybe seven feet wide and twenty-four feet long, . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . something like that. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I mean I'm just, you know, a guessing. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And the . . . the chickenhouse which has been there ever since I can remember . . . ROTENIZER: Okay, it's still over there? SUMNER: Yeah. It's . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . located back there. And . . . ROTENIZER: This building here? SUMNER: Yeah. That's the storage . . . I'm gonna call that a storage building. ROTENIZER: Okay. What was it made of and about how big was it? SUMNER: That's the building that's out there now. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: Just trying to think. Yeah, that's . . . that's the only . . . the only buildings that I can recall that, you know, was here when I was growing up. ROTENIZER: Okay. A crib, the outdoor toilet, storage building, chickenhouse. About how big was the chickenhouse? SUMNER: I don't know. We can measure it. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. That . . . SUMNER: It's still out there. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: . . . okay. Okay. That and the storage building are still there? SUMNER: Yeah. And . . . ROTENIZER: And this is? SUMNER: . . . that's . . . that was a little . . . they . . . at one time it was a brooderhouse where they raised chickens. There's a concrete device in there that they . . . they put coal in to . . . to heat the chickens, you know, when they were . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . little. And it's . . . it's about to fall down but it's still . . . you know, you can still see the brick and everything. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. And that was all . . . that was when . . . when you were a small child? SUMNER: Umhmm. ROTENIZER: Okay. Show me . . . where . . . where did your garden used to be? Can . . . can you draw on the map here, [sigh--Sumner] when you were growing up and . . . and where the fence used to be around the house? SUMNER: The fence . . . you can see the outline of the fence. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: It's right on the high place here, which is . . . is located . . . ROTENIZER: And there's the well. SUMNER: The well and the . . . let's see, chickenhouse, and we got . . . we got to get [microphone interference] . . . right in here, there's the smokehouse. ROTENIZER: Was that smokehouse here when you were younger? SUMNER: Yes, sir. It's been here ever since I can remember. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Did you . . . did they used to keep it locked when you were growing up? SUMNER: No, sir. We didn't have a lock on nothing. ROTENIZER: Was there . . . you just kept meats in it and that's all? SUMNER: What did you say? ROTENIZER: You just kept meat in it? The cured meat in it . . . SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: . . . [inaudible]. SUMNER: They . . . they cured meat and . . . and they hung beef in there. They'd kill a beef and the local people would usually go together and . . . and if your neighbor had a . . . had a beef and you had one, they'd kill it and divide it. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: But . . . so that it would keep, and you would take half of his beef and he'd take half of yours and that way you would . . . you'd have fresh meat because it . . . the deterioration of beef is a lot greater than hog meat, and you'd . . . you'd have fresh meat. And you'd always cut from the bottom side. You didn't go get what kind of steak you wanted. You went . . . ROTENIZER: Right. SUMNER: . . . and got the next piece of meat that cut of the . . . ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: . . . the quarter. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Did you have hogs also? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Where was the hog lot on here . . . on this map? SUMNER: The hog lot was located behind the barn. ROTENIZER: Oh, behind the barn? SUMNER: Uh-huh. ROTENIZER: About how many hogs? SUMNER: I don't know. They kept . . . they would keep four or five meat hogs. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And where was the butchering done for the hogs? SUMNER: It was done . . . ROTENIZER: The location? SUMNER: . . . around on the other creek there was some natural gas wells that people had, and they had scolding pans and they'd have a get-together and . . . and I wasn't involved in any of them. My uncle . . . of course, I wasn't old enough . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . back then, but my uncle would take hogs around there and . . . and--let me write this down before I forget--and . . . ROTENIZER: A little fence? SUMNER: We got a fence that ran out of here and down here . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . and came around up here and it went all the way up the other side of the smokehouse. ROTENIZER: Okay. So the smokehouse was inside the yard? SUMNER: Yes, sir. And the hog lot was located here, and from . . . ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. So that was one . . . SUMNER: You're getting ahead of me here. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: I'll lose my . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . train of thought. This area right here that I've got tobacco in was also the garden. They had a . . . they had . . . ROTENIZER: In front of the house, okay. SUMNER: . . . two huge gardens because that was their source of food for the winter. ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: And they canned. ROTENIZER: Okay. Did your mom make soap? SUMNER: My grandmother made soap out of lye, and they would take the grease . . . if . . . if a lard can of grease got strong they would take the grease and make . . . make soap out of it. But my mother, she may have made it on occasions but I . . . I don't . . . I don't know about it. But they used the lye soap, and I've got my grandmother's washboard that . . . where they did their washing. ROTENIZER: Do you remember where in the yard your grandmother made the soap? SUMNER: They made it in a . . . they had a kettle, which is bursted out here, and they made it in that kettle. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: And the kettle hung on two po-. . . there was two posts with a crossmember across it that they hung the . . . the kettle on, and they used that to render lard and to make soap and to can beans and what have you. ROTENIZER: Now, was that . . . was that done inside the yard or was it . . . SUMNER: No, sir. That was done out to the back of the . . . out to the back of the . . . let's see, let's call this--I messed up--it was . . . it was located in this vicinity right here. ROTENIZER: Behind the storage building. SUMNER: Behind the storage building or garage . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . or whatever you want to call it. ROTENIZER: Did your dad park his vehicles there? SUMNER: We parked the vehicles in the . . . ROTENIZER: In the garage. SUMNER: . . . in the garage. ROTENIZER: In the garage, okay. Okay. And how about . . . well, where did you keep the . . . where . . . where did they . . . they keep the wood and the coal? Where was that stored? SUMNER: The coal was stored right exactly where that big pine tree's located right now because there's . . . when you dig around it you still get small pieces of coal. ROTENIZER: And that's between the toilet and the storage building on your map . . . SUMNER: Right. ROTENIZER: . . . roughly? SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: Some where in that area. Okay. And how about sorghum, or . . . or did they do cane? SUMNER: They did cane. My mother used to . . . to make can-. . . bake sorghum, and [inaudible] Napier, which lives on up the creek here, would . . . they would bring cane in. And we never, on any occasions that I can remember, made cane, but she would go help make sorghum and . . . and then she would get sorghum in return for her work. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. Okay. Do you know where they . . . who they got their coal from? SUMNER: Beg your pardon? ROTENIZER: Who did they get the coal from to heat with? SUMNER: I can remember that when I was real small that we used to go to . . . to Hazard, and they would . . . my uncle and my father would go up there and they would get outside these . . . these coal dumps, and there was a lot of good coal and they'd go up there and pick that coal up. 'Course then later years they would . . . they would buy the coal. Now we're talking about back before 1950 because, see, after 1950 we had gas. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: And I was . . . I was quite small when they was fooling with the coal . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . and the firewood. I can remember that, you know, I would . . . I would go get stuff for the . . . for the stove back when I was small because that was one of my jobs to do when I came in from school. But my father always had . . . my top priority was to get your lessons before you do anything. But you didn't want to drag your feet too much at getting your lessons because . . . ROTENIZER: Right. SUMNER: . . . you might be bringing the coal in from a lantern. [Chuckling] ROTENIZER: Okay. When did . . . so was there electricity when you were a young kid here? SUMNER: The electricity and the gas came in about the same time. I believe . . . I don't know whether it was nineteen or forty-nine or fifty when they ran the . . . the electric and the gas through here. Because the gas ca-. . . the electricity came off the other creek around there on Upper Cane Creek because Harry Peet run the generators with the natural gas to make electricity, and he sold the electricity and the gas. ROTENIZER: Both of them. A local utility man then? SUMNER: Yes, sir. [Chuckle--Rotenizer] ROTENIZER: Around the house, did your . . . did your mother or grandmother have any . . . any flowers? SUMNER: Always. ROTENIZER: Any areas in particular around the house? SUMNER: Well, there's . . . right there is some flowers that has . . . ROTENIZER: That's along where the fence row there used to be? SUMNER: No, see the fence was on down the other side of it, and out here is some of her old roses that my wife trimmed off when she was going to take 'em up . . . ROTENIZER: Out here? SUMNER: . . . at a later date. Yeah. ROTENIZER: Off from the, okay, front corner of the house. SUMNER: Uh-huh. ROTENIZER: How about fruit trees? Where were the fruit trees in . . . on . . . on the yard? SUMNER: Well, the pear tree was there, and there was an apple tree there, and there was one located . . . they were located at all four corners of the house. ROTENIZER: Inside the fence? SUMNER: Inside the fence. ROTENIZER: Inside the fence, okay. And these were all planted before you were born, probably? SUMNER: They were planted before. They were huge trees when I can first . . . ROTENIZER: Really? SUMNER: . . . remember 'em. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. SUMNER: N-. . . ROTENIZER: No, go ahead. SUMNER: Go ahead. ROTENIZER: Well, where did you used to get the firewood for the fireplace? SUMNER: The firewood was cut back there in the hills, and my uncle and my father would bring it in. And . . . and then they would split it up out here and pile it up by the coal pile. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Was the coal pile or the wood pile covered? SUMNER: No. ROTENIZER: Just . . . it was an open . . . okay. And did you have names for certain fields? Like did you do any . . . were there any names for the fields just . . . SUMNER: No, the only name that I can remember is one of my uncles, which . . . the one that was in the Marines Corps, he cleared about two acres off back here in the mountains and they always called it "the Burl Piece" because Burl was his name. That's the only one that I ever . . . you know. ROTENIZER: And that's . . . that's the top of the hollow behind us here? SUMNER: Yeah, that's on the top bench back in the head of this hollow. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: Take you a long time to get there. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. So there was some bench farming going on? SUMNER: This was all bench farming. In fact, I can remember when there was trees in that field down through there that . . . that was big enough that you couldn't see the churchhouse from here. And, in fact, I have done quite a bit of work to get those fields dried out because they raised in the mountains because the . . . the ground was more fertile. They didn't have any fertilize. I guess they had it but they . . . they couldn't afford it. They used the soil that was richer on the hills. ROTENIZER: And left the bottomland for what? SUMNER: And let the bottomlands grow up. ROTENIZER: When you were growing up, this . . . the bottomlands were grown up? SUMNER: The bottomlands . . . that nine and a half acres over there, there was probably two acres there that they let the cattle run in there on. And . . . ROTENIZER: For most parts the side slopes were pretty cl-. . . well pastured and . . . SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: . . . and cultivated. SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: What kind of crops were they growing on the benches? SUMNER: Well, they grew corn and tobacco. That was their main source. ROTENIZER: About when did people quit be-. . . farming the benches, roughly? SUMNER: I don't know. They quit . . . you know, they quit before my time. As far as . . . as, you know, the . . . the raising of tobacco because the fertilize and stuff became more plentiful and I guess the people had a little more money so they could afford to buy it. But all I can tell you about these old mountain fields is what I've been told . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . by older people. ROTENIZER: Okay. What kind of fences did your uncle have around the fe-. . . the property? SUMNER: There was . . . it was the plank fence with the wire. In fact I can show you some of the wire that's over there in that line fence that runs up through there. ROTENIZER: Okay. So the yard and the out . . . boundary . . . SUMNER: Right. The . . . ROTENIZER: . . . fences were the same? SUMNER: . . . out boundary . . . the boundary fences in the woods was made out of split boards. They were . . . they were rived plank fences. And they took four pieces of No. 9 wire, like I said a few minutes ago, and wove those together. ROTENIZER: And that was around the property. How did your . . . your mother or grandmother preserve the fruits. They can it or they dry it? SUMNER: They had a . . . I forgot one. ROTENIZER: Okay. [Chuckle--Sumner] SUMNER: Right behind the . . . let's see. The storage building, the shop, the . . . right behind this smokehouse there was a . . . a . . . ROTENIZER: You can draw a dash line, maybe. SUMNER: . . . okay. There was a . . . just on the other side of this fence was a fruit cellar. ROTENIZER: Can you describe that to me? SUMNER: It was double-box, approximately six inches between the box and . . . and poured full of sawdust to create an insulant. It also had sawdust in the bottom of it. They built the double sides, they poured it full of sawdust, then they covered the top, then they built a roof over top of that. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And it was completely surrounded with double walls with sawdust for insulation. ROTENIZER: Hmm. Umhmm. And about how . . . how big was this? SUMNER: Oh, I would say that it was probably ten by twenty. ROTENIZER: About ten by twenty? Okay. SUMNER: It had . . . it had shelving on each side of it, and you walked down the center of it, and in the . . . in the extreme cold times when they went in and out, they . . . they would burn a lantern to . . . to create some source of heat. I don't know whether you can read my writing . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . or not. ROTENIZER: I . . . I can, it's cellar. And that's all above ground? SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. Where did your mother or grandmother take the trash? SUMNER: They had a location where they'd burn it. And they didn't have as much trash as we had nowadays. But, as far as . . . as far as where they'd burn it, I . . . I . . . I couldn't really tell you, but I know that they used to . . . they used to talk about burning the trash. Of course, whenever we had the fire going in the . . . in the wintertime, we'd burn it in the . . . in the house. But I . . . I . . . I can burning it, but as far as the location, I couldn't . . . I couldn't tell you. But that was never my job to go burn the trash because my mother was always afraid of fire and . . . ROTENIZER: That was her job then, to . . . SUMNER: . . . and her and my grandmother took care of that. ROTENIZER: Okay. How about like if a jar or a plate or something broke. Where would you put that kind of . . . that kind of trash? SUMNER: Under the house. ROTENIZER: Under the house? SUMNER: Yeah. There's a lot of glass under this. ROTENIZER: Was . . . was that real common then if something broke? SUMNER: I don't know where . . . well, it was common for them [chuckling] . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . because I've . . . I got cut under there. We had to run a gas line in here several years ago. There was an old green fruit jar that had been broken back under there. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: But there wa-. . . ROTENIZER: You don't remember seeing 'em put stuff in certain . . . SUMNER: No. ROTENIZER: . . . places or anything? SUMNER: No. Uh-uh. ROTENIZER: Okay. With . . . with the chickens . . . were the chickens all used here or did you sell the chickens? SUMNER: In . . . in most cases the chickens were used for . . . you know, to eat or to use for eggs, and the foxes caught a lot of 'em and . . . ROTENIZER: Foxes? You had trouble with foxes? SUMNER: Yeah. There was a lot of foxes. There're still a lot of foxes. But they . . . they might have sold 'em but I . . . I don't recall selling any. I recall taking eggs to the store for my . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . grandmother, but there was never any chickens sold. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. How about trapping or any-. . . hunting when you were growing up? Was that a source of . . . of income or meat? SUMNER: Well, it wasn't a source of income, it was a sport for me because once I got big enough I hunt and I still hunt all over the country. And I bird hunt, elk hunt, deer hunt, and . . . but as far as any source of income, no. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I mean I was . . . I was, I guess, pretty fortunate because I never really . . . I never really went hungry and I never really . . . I wanted for things that I couldn't afford, . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . but I never needed anything as far as something to eat or a dime in my pocket if I . . . if I wanted to get me a candy bar. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Where'd your family get your clothes when you were growing up? SUMNER: My mother, she . . . she made a lot of clothes and . . . and, of course, we would go to the store, you know, and buy our shoes and our . . . ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Did she ever order stuff out of the catalog? SUMNER: Out of the Sears Roebuck catalog, yes, sir. ROTENIZER: That was real . . . real . . . real . . . SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: . . . common? SUMNER: Uh-huh. There was Sears Roebuck and Speigel and Montgomery Ward and several of 'em that they ordered from. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. When you were a child, who did you play with? SUMNER: Well, I played with local neighbors. There was . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . two children over there, a boy and a girl, that lived in that house which is four hundred yards across the field. Then around the bend there was four other children. There were a lot of younger people that grew up that was near or about my age. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And that's . . . you know, we'd go to school together when we walked to school. You know, you'd walk by and start out . . . well, we'd start down here with me and then I'd go over and get my neighbor and . . . and the further up the road we got the more . . . ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: . . . of the kids got together and they didn't have to worry about the cars running over 'em or anything like they do now. ROTENIZER: What kind of things did you all do for fun? SUMNER: Well, we'd fish and go out at night and catch possums and hunt or dogs and take side meat and fry it over a fire and fish. ROTENIZER: Okay. When you were growing up, did you have any pets around the house? SUMNER: Yeah. I had a dog. ROTENIZER: Just one dog growing up . . . SUMNER: One dog. ROTENIZER: . . . for the most part? What did you all feed the dog? SUMNER: Scraps. Didn't know what dog food was. ROTENIZER: And I guess the hogs got scraps also? SUMNER: Hogs got scraps and then we fed the hogs corn. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Okay. You say when your . . . when your parents needed to buy something they usually would go to Stanton, or needed if they needed to just the store that was here at the . . . at the forks or through mail order. Where there ever any peddlers or vendors that would come through? SUMNER: Yeah, there was a fellow by the name of Har-. . . I believe it Harry Reese. He used to come through and he . . . now, he bought chickens from people but, like I said, I never remember us selling any but he always McNess Products and he sold the lemon extract and vanilla. And my grandmother, she always liked to make lemon pies and I hate the taste of one right now. [Laughter] ROTENIZER: This Reese, did he have a car or . . . SUMNER: No, he had a truck and then . . . ROTENIZER: Had a truck, okay. SUMNER: . . . he would buy chickens and eggs, and he was . . . he would do more selling than he would buying. I can . . . I can vaguely remember him. But I still got some of the old bottles of the lemon extract and vanilla and Nutmeg and stuff like that, and pepper that . . . that he . . . he'd peddle. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Did your uncle tile the fields at all here or . . . SUMNER: They were . . . I have dug up some tile in the fields where I have been putting in some tile that was put here by whom, I don't know. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: And they were . . . they were in the ground. I don't . . . I don't know whether he did it or my grandfather did it, but they were the . . . the old type tile that was a different diameter to our tile that we have now and . . . ROTENIZER: What kind of diameter was it? SUMNER: It was . . . they were probably six inches in diameter and they were . . . they were kilned and they were rough on the surface of 'em. You see one in a . . . sometime when you're digging in a field or something, or the creek is eroded or washed out you'll see one come up. ROTENIZER: What kind . . . what diameter are they now? SUMNER: They're four inches. Well, now we've gone to plastic and we use a . . . we use a roll of tile. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: It's . . . they no longer lay the brick . . . or the brick-type tile in the bottom of the ditches. You get a two hundred and fifty foot roll and dig a ditch and drop it in it and it's got serated places in the sides of it that the water seeps through. ROTENIZER: Okay. So the earlier ones were . . . were pipes and bricks or . . . SUMNER: They were a . . . they were a twelve . . . ten, twelve inch long tile that was . . . the newer ones were . . . I think they were four inches in diameter and you layed 'em in and you put 'em on a flat surface and you left a little crack between each one of 'em for water to . . . ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: . . . . to run into. Whereas now, like I said, you got your . . . your rolls of plastic. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And they're like hollow inside, or they're . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir. They're hollow inside. The . . . the diameter of 'em is approximately three-quarters of an inch diameter. ROTENIZER: And how . . . how deep were these early ones buried, do you think? SUMNER: Well, they . . . you buried a tile to the necessary depth because you got so much elevation. There's . . . in some cases, that you can put a tile that you may have to run it six feet deep to keep the elevation to where it will drain. Whereas in another place on a perfectly level place you might not put 'em over twenty-four inches deep. And I've . . . have seen 'em, you know, less depth than that because of the lay of the land. When you run out of soil, you've got to . . . you got to bring your pipe up to keep your . . . ROTENIZER: Right. SUMNER: . . . drop on your tile. ROTENIZER: So you were married in . . . in '62 . . . SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: . . . and you worked at IBM until you retired in what year? SUMNER: I retired last year. ROTENIZER: Last year, 1990. SUMNER: Yes, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. Now when was your . . . your daughter born, and what's her name? SUMNER: She was borned . . . I hope I got that . . . she was borned . . . ROTENIZER: About how old is she, roughly? SUMNER: . . . she was b-. . . I'll tell you how . . . how . . . when she was born in just a minute. She was borned in September the 6th of 1964. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: I knew it'd come to me in a minute. [Chuckle] ROTENIZER: Okay. And her name? SUMNER: Angela. ROTENIZER: Angela . . . SUMNER: She is . . . Chapman now is her last name. ROTENIZER: And when . . . when did she get married? SUMNER: She's been married approximately two years, I think. ROTENIZER: Okay. And who did she marry? SUMNER: Glenn Chapman. ROTENIZER: Glenn Chapman. Okay. And what kind of background is he from? SUMNER: Well, he's a . . . his father is a . . . was in the armed forces and he married a girl from overseas and they came back to the States, and then he migrated back to, I don't know. I think Glenn was born in Germany, and then they came back to Lexington and they've . . . they've lived in Lexington ever since. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: He works for the Postal Service, him and her both. ROTENIZER: Okay. And your wife's name is? SUMNER: Ann. ROTENIZER: Ann? Okay. How old is she? SUMNER: She's forty-five. ROTENIZER: Okay. SUMNER: No, she's forty-six. ROTENIZER: Forty-six. Okay. And you said when you were activated in the Reserves, you . . . you just got through training and then came back and you were activated to Arkansas. What was going on to cause you to be activated? SUMNER: It was the Cuban [Missile] Crisis. ROTENIZER: The Cuban Crisis. And for one year? SUMNER: Yeah. ROTENIZER: Okay. Were . . . were many other people from Cane Creek in the military then, Reserves, National Guard? SUMNER: No, not to my knowledge. I joined the Mt. Sterling Unit. ROTENIZER: Mt. Sterling. Okay. And your mother passed away last year? SUMNER: She passed away this year. ROTENIZER: This year. This year in January? SUMNER: She passed away in January. ROTENIZER: Okay. Okay. And then you plan to build a new house on this . . . SUMNER: I hope to. ROTENIZER: . . . present location. SUMNER: If my money holds out and I can get things going my way. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Now what kind of farming do you have going on now at the present? SUMNER: At the present time I'm not doing a whole lot of anything, just feeding my few cows I've got now. But I've got to start my fencing, getting ready for my tobacco beds. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. When was the barn . . . the new barn here built? SUMNER: The barn was built this year. ROTENIZER: This year. And what kind of barn is it? SUMNER: Cable. ROTENIZER: Cable barn. SUMNER: It's a cable lift. You don't have to get in it to hang the tobacco, and you can . . . you spread the tobacco and hang it on the rail in the field, and then you bring it to the barn and cable will lift it to the location you want. ROTENIZER: Okay. And that's unique to this county? SUMNER: Well, it's the only one in this county to my knowledge. ROTENIZER: Oh, okay. SUMNER: I believe that it's the forty-sixth one that's built in the State of Kentucky. Now, I'm not for sure on that. I had some literature on that. But there's not too many of 'em built. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. The Extension Service help you with it? SUMNER: Well, the University of Kentucky helped me. They gave me the . . . their blueprints, and then I went through their blueprints and changed it to the . . . the way I wanted it. Of course I got a lot of real good ideas from their prints. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. Now, your . . . you mentioned putting in tiles here yourself. SUMNER: Umhmm. ROTENIZER: Have . . . have you been getting like federal aid to do that or is it all . . . SUMNER: No, sir. ROTENIZER: Okay. Have you . . . have you ever used federal aid for anything on farming or . . . SUMNER: On one occasion. ROTENIZER: What was that? SUMNER: That pond. ROTENIZER: You built the pond? SUMNER: Uh-huh. On a government percentage-funding program. ROTENIZER: About what year was that? SUMNER: It's been five years ago, I think. ROTENIZER: Umhmm. And the . . . the other structures up behind the house here, the newer ones, when were they built? SUMNER: There's one of 'em was built four years ago. I built it. ROTENIZER: Okay. And that kind a took the place of the . . . the shop? SUMNER: Well, the shop was . . . it wasn't used for anything other than just a . . . an old building that was about ready to fall down and pile junk in and . . . and I try to go along with my mother on most things because I figure that if I live long enough, I'm going to be old myself and I left a lot of the structures standing that wouldn't have left standing had it been my . . . ROTENIZER: Yeah. SUMNER: . . . doing. But self-satisfaction, in my estimation, is the greatest thing in the world, and she was satisfied. ROTENIZER: Good. Okay. We'll have to stop here. The . . . the tape is about to run out. [End of Interview] Euell Sumner is a farmer and retired IBM employee who was born in 1938 in Powell County, Kentucky. He discusses some family history, his education, service in the army, and how he became involved in farming. He recalls his childhood and how his grandmother and mother gardened and canned, made lye soap and clothes. Sumner also recalls the organization of his uncle's farm, now Sumner's farm, where he raised tobacco and livestock. He talks about the types of barns, outbuildings, and fencing on the farm. Kentucky Farming

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