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Interview with Joe Lane Travis, July 12, 2006

2006-07-12 Interview with Joe Lane Travis, July 12, 2006 Leg001:2006OH116 Leg 119 00:34:26 Kentucky Legislature Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Legislators -- Kentucky -- Interviews. Party affiliation -- Kentucky. Health insurance -- Law and legislation -- Kentucky. Social security -- United States. Economic development -- Kentucky. Honesty -- Political aspects -- Kentucky. Kentucky. Governor (1967-1971 : Nunn) Kentucky. Governor (1991-1995 : Jones) Kentucky. Governor (2003-2007 : Fletcher) Kentucky. General Assembly. Legislative Research Commission. Whistle blowing -- Law and legislation Foster home care Open and closed shop -- Law and legislation -- United States World War II Korean War Roads Television Nunn, Louie B., 1924- Goldwater, Barry, 1938- Reagan, Ronald Nunn, Lee R. Baker, Walter, 1937- campaign finance bill Kafoglis, Nicholas Williams, David Legislative Research Commission (LRC) health insurance reform bill Jones, Brereton PACs (Political Action Committees) Lobbyists Kentucky Farm Bureau whistle blower bill Civil War Persian Gulf War Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 ethanol Alcohol health care legislation Fletcher, Ernie, 1952- Legislative Ethics Commission term limits Churchill, Winston, 1871-1947 foster care Social security Disability insurance right to work law Economics Labor unions Prichard Committee for Academic Excellence Kentucky Education Association Kentucky Education Association (KEA) South Central Bell Lewis, Ron, 1946- Key Legislation: Whistle blower bill; Right to work law; campaign finance bill; health insurance reform bill Term/District: Senate (1981-1988), 9th district Leadership Position(s): House Minority Floor Leader, 1986 Counties in District: Monroe County (Ky.) -- Edmonson County (Ky.) -- Butler County (Ky.) --Barren County (Ky.) -- Simpson County (Ky.) -- Allen County (Ky.) Joe Lane Travis; interviewee Jessica Flinchem; interviewer 2006OH116_LEG119_Travis 1:|21(2)|45(16)|65(6)|77(5)|93(11)|108(6)|127(12)|143(5)|168(6)|193(8)|218(2)|233(3)|248(3)|269(1)|280(13)|309(1)|324(2)|347(11)|360(11)|377(10)|402(9)|419(12)|435(13)|459(1)|485(1)|507(9)|520(14)|550(6)|572(3)|586(12)|601(4)|614(11)|629(3)|647(10)|662(8)|679(2)|703(2)|719(1)|741(7)|763(8)|783(9)|798(3)|821(5)|841(8)|856(12)|871(1)|887(14)|904(8)|923(4)|948(3)|964(11)|983(8)|997(4)|1012(5)|1027(11)|1051(10)|1067(10)|1084(2)|1104(10)|1119(5)|1134(8)|1148(11)|1165(14)|1180(8)|1194(10)|1211(2)|1227(6)|1240(9)|1255(1)|1268(5)|1281(10)|1296(5)|1313(10)|1326(12)|1340(4)|1357(5)|1371(8)|1386(9)|1401(8)|1418(5)|1432(8)|1449(3)|1463(1)|1479(5)|1494(6)|1516(11)|1532(8)|1548(5)|1573(10)|1588(10)|1604(9)|1621(6)|1638(8)|1653(11)|1667(12)|1682(12)|1702(4)|1719(2)|1736(3)|1750(6)|1767(5)|1782(2)|1797(7)|1811(5)|1825(6)|1842(2)|1854(6)|1870(11)|1886(9)|1908(4)|1925(14)|1940(9)|1958(11)|1970(2)|1987(3)|2002(11)|2022(6)|2044(12)|2057(4)|2078(6)|2091(11)|2107(10)|2122(10)|2135(6)|2149(5)|2162(11)|2189(6) audiotrans Legit interview FLINCHEM: The following is an unrehearsed interview with former State Senator Joe Lane Travis who represented Monroe, Edmonson, Butler, Barren, Simpson, and Allen counties, in the Ninth District from 1981 to 1988. The interview is conducted by Jessica FLINCHEM for the University of Kentucky Library, Kentucky Legislative Oral History Project on Wednesday, July 12, 2006, in Mr. Travis's office in Glasgow, Kentucky, at 1:00 PM. [Pause in recording.] FLINCHEM: What is your full name? TRAVIS: Joe Lane Travis. FLINCHEM: Joe Lane Travis? TRAVIS: Middle name's Lane. L-A-N-E. That's my mother's maiden name. FLINCHEM: Okay. TRAVIS: Um-hm. FLINCHEM: When and where were you born? TRAVIS: I was born on July 6, 1931, nine miles east of Glasgow at a little place called Temple Hill, Kentucky. FLINCHEM: Temple Hill? TRAVIS: Where my grandfather, uh, operated a country store and my father had a garage there. FLINCHEM: Did you grow up there? TRAVIS: No, uh, we moved, uh, from there in about 1936, which I don't remember, but I know from ----------(??), to Tompkinsville, and I attended, uh, grade, and elementary, and, uh, high school in Tompkinsville. And graduated from high school there in 1949. FLINCHEM: Okay. What else can you tell me about your family? You mentioned the, the country store? TRAVIS: Well, my grandfather Travis, uh, operated a country store, and had a farm in Temple Hill, and next to it there was a garage, and that he built for my father, and, uh, and we lived in a new house they built in '35 right next to that. And I was born right across the street where my parents had a room with an old fellow named Ish Biggers when I was born, who was sort of my godfather all my life. And, uh, uh, my grandfather kept that store until about the time that World War II started. And, uh, I spent a, I spent a lot of time there. My parents were separated and divorced. And I don't remember when, but it was sometime in the thirties then-- FLINCHEM: --when you were very young? TRAVIS: Oh, I, I was, I don't remember it. FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: You know, but I remember spending all my weekends, uh, uh, at Temple Hill with my grandparents up, up through, well, all, all my life really, I spent a lot of time with them, because my father was in World War II. In fact he, he landed on, on, in Normandy on DD in 1944. And his brother was in Africa, Sicily, and Italy. And they were my grandparents' only two sons. And my, my uncle, Earl, had to come home because he had suffered, uh, really he, what they call, uh, shellshock, really, in those days. It was a, it's combat fatigue. And my father was still over there. And, uh, when my grandfather passed away in May of 1945, the war in Europe had just ended. And I remember how relieved my grandfather was. That it was all over. And then in 1950, I, I joined the National Guard as soon as I was able to. Uh, I attempted to get into West Point when I got out of high school, but my politics--I have always been wrong politically. (both laugh) Been in the wrong party at the wrong time, wrong, but, uh, I wanted to go to West Point. So I joined the Guard trying to get in on a competitive, uh, situation to get admitted to West Point. And, uh, uh, I attended Western. I had basketball scholarships at other schools, uh, but none of them are the caliber of Western. I'm not going to degrade the schools that had, uh, that had a basketball scholarships, but they were small schools. Uh, the best was probably David Lipscomb in Nashville, a four-year college, but, uh, I didn't go and that's a long story in itself. I went to Western. And, uh, and then in 1950, just before, uh, Christmas, uh, we were, my unit was called to active duty, and the next Christmas I spent in Korea, as a young artillery man in field artillery. FLINCHEM: You mentioned earlier that, um, spending that time in Korea made a big impression on you. What are some of the things you-- TRAVIS: --well, it did, uh, because you got to realize in those days, that was the pre-electronic era, before television--of course, there was television. I remember the first television I ever saw was, uh, in a restaurant in Washington, D.C. when I went there on my senior trip in high school. You know, a little small, tiny thing. (FLINCHEM laughs) I'll never forget it; a little place called The Chicken Hut. And I'll never forget that place. It was the first time I'd ever seen one. Uh, but, uh, you, you weren't exposed to things then like you are now. And I'd made, uh, some small trips. Uh, I'd, I'd been all the way to Key West one time with some neighbors to help them drive really. And, uh, I'd been to Birmingham to visit my father when he was in the army down there, uh, in early, in the early forties, and things like that, but I had never seen anything like that. I, you know, here you go off, uh, with all these other people from, there were people in my battalion from every state in the union. And you learned a lot from that. You were exposed to things you'd, you'd never imagine, and then, uh, uh, just getting to go through places like San Francisco in those days, you know. Unbelievable, it was unreal. (laughs) You know, and you're, you're a nineteen or twenty-year old soldier in San Francisco. It's not, it, it wasn't then like it is today. At the time of the Korean War, it was more like World War II. Everything was basically World War II. All the equipment we used was the same. And, but it wasn't the electronic age, and everything was so exciting to you. It's exciting to get on a big ship. It's exciting to be out in the ocean, and see those; we were in stone for about two weeks. I couldn't believe it, you know, everyone on the ship was sink, was sick. I remember one time, I went to the mess hall to eat, and there was only, uh, three of us in there eating, of all the, the three thousand plus troops that were on that ship; everyone was sick. FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: It was that rough. And, uh, you just learn, you know. You, you remember, you remember the kid just, uh, that ship dropping anchor in Tokyo Bay. Sitting there watching the sunrise over Tokyo Bay, the land of the rising sun. And I remember all those things, and, uh, I remember seeing what I did at Yokohama. And then, uh, seeing Korea the first time, and I could not believe it. I just couldn't believe it when I saw it. I'd never seen anything like it. You know, people so poor. And they had so little. And, uh, but worked so hard, too, and they were so energetic. Tough old people. (laughs) And I learned a lot from being with them. And the whole thing was just one huge learning experience and a, and a great education. FLINCHEM: What are some of your first memories of world events, like, before you went into the Korean War when you were younger? TRAVIS: Well, probably, uh, one of the first things that I remember, and I've thought about that several times, I remember when I was young, uh, I knew about the, uh, you know, World War II, about Hitler in Europe. And, uh, cause one of the first things I have any recollection I wanted to be in my life was wanting to be, uh, was to fly Spitfires in the Eagle Squadron. And that would've been, you know, in '39 or '40. I was eight or nine-years old. But I, I recall that more distinctly than anything else. I just thought what a great thing this would be to do. (laughs) FLINCHEM: To be a pilot. TRAVIS: Be a fly, fly Spitfire fighters, and be a part of the Eagle Squadron over, in England. That's one of the first things I have a real vivid memory of, other than little things that happen around you all the time. You can't date them so well-- FLINCHEM: --yeah-- TRAVIS: --because they're not fastened to or attached to something like the Battle of Britain was. I remember that well. I remember all aspects of World War II because I kept up with, I kept maps and charts on the walls of all the battlefronts, you know. And just as a kid and kept up with that. And, uh, you know, where we were and what we were doing. The news, I was really preoccupied with it. FLINCHEM: Do you listen to radio programs a lot, following the-- TRAVIS: --yes, you did. Um-hm. Yeah, yeah, you listened to it quite a bit. Gable ---------(??) and all those old people, and, uh, they didn't have talk shows like they do now, they had. But, oh yeah, you listened to it a lot. And I remember the mystery programs, The Shadow, and all those things on--(laughs)--the radio when I was a kid. And in those days, most people, you went around the country, the countryside, they had battery-powered radios, because I remember when, uh, this area was electrified by the Rural Electric Administration, REA. I remember them putting the poles up. And I was fascinated by the aluminum numbers they tacked on the poles. I don't know why, but that's always--(FLINCHEM laughs)--that's always stuck in my mind. I remember seeing them do it. But electricity was, you know, changed everything. Because before that you didn't have it. Now we always did. My grandfather's store at Temple Hill had a Delco plant. You probably don't know what that is. FLINCHEM: Well, I've heard of it. TRAVIS: Well, that's a little plant-- FLINCHEM: --just don't know much about(??) it-- TRAVIS: --that makes electricity. You had a whole wall about the size of that one, about as high as that thing covered with glass batteries. And this plant put electricity in those batteries. And they were liquid, you know. And it ran the house and the store. FLINCHEM: Hm. TRAVIS: And then my grandparents in Tompkinsville, they lived in a house that was built in 1840, a brick home, a historic old home. And my, my grandfather over there, he had been operating country stores and wheeled and dealed in real estate all the time. And, uh, he had his own Delco plant that ran his house ----------(??). FLINCHEM: Hm. TRAVIS: Most people didn't have electricity--(laughs)--when I was a kid. (laughs) FLINCHEM: It's a big change, isn't it? TRAVIS: Oh, it's a, it's a, it's change, changed so much, it's unbelievable. It' just, it's just mind-boggling when you look around and see the way things have changed. FLINCHEM: Same for roads? TRAVIS: Yeah, roads, too, because, uh, I grew up in Tompkinsville in the, in the late thirties and forties. And, uh, at the end of World War II, there was only one paved road out of Tompkinsville, and that was from Tompkinsville to Temple Hill, where I was born, to Glasgow, which's now Highway 63. They call it the roller coaster highway. That was the only paved road out of town. And all the, all the town streets were gravel, you know. And, of course, the women were always fussing about the dust. And they were always wanting to get the, the streets oiled to keep the dust down. It was awful. And, of course, there wasn't any air conditioning either. (laughs) You know, you had all that--(laughs)--problems in the summertime. But it was a great life. We were, I think it made you a little more tougher when you grew up. You could take a, that's what I wonder now when I look at our military, the way we rear our kids and what they are used to. I don't think they could stand what our soldiers did in World War II, or previous wars, or even what we did in Korea. I don't think the kids today could stand it. I don't think they could take it. Because we were just had a, we just came from a different background, and, uh, actually the military service was almost a luxury to most people in those days, because --- -------(??) did have plenty(??) then. (laughs) And most people didn't have anything, you know, and now it's just the opposite. It's changed so much. Everything has changed. Roads and the military. Everything is so different. And not all for the better either. (laughs) FLINCHEM: Some change is good; some change is bad. TRAVIS: Some change is good, and some change is bad. Cause I'm one of those, uh, people now that I think probably the worst thing wrong with our country now is too much television. I think it's destroying us. I think it's destroying the youth. It's, it's certainly just, uh, affecting adversely the adult people in this country. It's just awful. It's just awful. Uh, I, I wish sometimes we could just shoot down those satellites there, so we wouldn't have any more signals from them. They'd all be better off. (laughs) It is, it's frightening. You know, I recall in my first days in the military that, uh, the training aids that were used. And, of course, one of the so-called training aids was a, was a, uh, movie or a slide show. Yeah. And they always considered audiovisual education as so important. And they did because soldiers would watch those films. And they were pretty well done. You had people like Ronald Reagan making it. And, and they were pretty well done. And now every time a kid sits down, all he does is punch a button on a remote, and he sees the most God awful things in training film in front of him. And that's what I look at is that horrible training film, just what they see all day. And it really bothers(??) me. (laughs) FLINCHEM: Sometimes animated that, that doesn't make a lot of difference, does it? TRAVIS: That's right. That's right. I watch it, well, my grandkids, you know, I don't understand it. What they're looking at, it's just, it's, it's so barbaric, some of these cartoons are. They're horrible to me. You know, it's not Mickey Mouse. (laughs) FLINCHEM: An example of change that's not so good. TRAVIS: That's right. That's, well, I think that I'm really convinced that probably the, our massive communication by electronic means and, uh, television exposure to all our youth is a terrible thing and to our adults, too. You know, no one reads the newspaper anymore. You notice the reports how the newspaper are declining, and it's because all they want to do is look at that idiot tube. And it's frightening. You know, they don't read books anymore. I just finished reading one that my next to the youngest daughter, uh, gave me. And the name of the title of the book is Three Roads to the Alamo. And it's basically, uh, biographies of, uh, of Davie Crockett--to whom we're related--and, uh, Jim Bowie and, uh, William Barrett Travis--to who I'm related--and that's, of course, really ------------(??) to me. I just finished reading it a few days ago. She gave it to me Father's Day. People don't bother to read those things anymore. And they don't want to read all those footnotes, and see all those details, which generally you hope is something close to the truth about these people. They look at this silly stuff on T.V., which it doesn't have anything to do with reality. (laughs) You know, it's, it's so fictionalized. They fictionalize history so much, it's unbelievable. FLINCHEM: I took a class once on history and film, and we would read history about a subject and watch a movie that was made about it. TRAVIS: Right. FLINCHEM: I know what you mean. TRAVIS: It's, it's frightening. It's really frightening. I, it is, it's just hard to believe. FLINCHEM: We were talking about your family earlier, I think before the tape started. TRAVIS: Yeah. FLINCHEM: And you said you have several children? TRAVIS: Yeah, uh, my wife is from Pike County. She's a coalminer's daughter. And, uh, she was at the Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington in nurse's training, uh, when I met her. They took, they took their college courses at the University of Kentucky. And I, I, uh, and she thinks I bumped into her accidently, but I, I really had set a trap for her. (FLINCHEM laughs) Because I saw her, I saw her a time or two-- (laughs)--passing to the law school up there. And I, I literally bumped into her accidently in the bookstore one day at U.K. And, uh, we were married, and we have five children. And Amy is my youngest one, works with me. She's a graduate at Western. And Holly the next one, is a, is a graduate at Western, and then the middle one is Kay, who's a graduate of, uh, U.K. I, I don't know whether she got her degree at U.K. or not, but the University of Maryland is where she got her degree in architecture, and then she got her masters in architecture at the University of Washington. And she taught architecture at the University of Washington. And then, uh, Mary Joe, she's a schoolteacher here in Barren County, a graduate of Western. And my son, Thomas, attended Western and finished at U.K. and graduated from U.K.'s law school. And he practices law in Lexington. So, that, that's the five of them, and I have four grandchildren. FLINCHEM: I was gonna ask if that was a, a grandchild I heard in there-- TRAVIS: --that's, that's, that's the youngest one. That one's six months old. Um-hm. Um-hm. FLINCHEM: Great. TRAVIS: That's the youngest one. Six months old. FLINCHEM: How did you become interested in practicing law? TRAVIS: Well, that's, you know, that's what, I, I, I was talking to a lady a few weeks ago that, uh, she appears on these local T.V. things about religion and things. And we weren't talking about that. But I have known her for years and was talking to her, and I, I said something to her, and she said, "I may have to use that one day," and I never thought of it that way. But as you, as you travel the road of life, you know, you have so many goals and so many ambitions, and you change so many times, because I wanted to do everything. You know. And, uh, I suppose most people are like that, and you'd always change. Because I wanted, uh, to attend West Point. That was my goal. I didn't get that. And, uh, my mother wanted me to be a doctor. And when I first graduated from high school, I took premed until I was called to active duty during the Korean War. And I wrote my mother a letter from Korea, and I said, "Mother, I'm over here now, and I'm shooting these people every day, and they're trying to kill me." I said, "I think I'm, uh, big enough now to make up my own mind what I'm gonna do." (both laugh) I said, "I think I'm, uh," so I told her I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. Now I never decided to be a lawyer to practice law. That's the strange thing about it. I wanted to be a lawyer because you had, in those days; you had to be a lawyer or CPA to get in the FBI. And I'd made up my mind at that time that was my next goal was to, uh, to serve in the FBI. And so, I went to law school, and then when I was in law school, I married before I finished. And that changed that plan. Because I didn't think that was a very good situation, you know. FLINCHEM: Your wife probably would have worried. TRAVIS: Yeah, she would have had, you know, and I changed. And so I, I just, uh, wound up back in the Army again as a judge advocate. And, uh, enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy that as much as I did the artillery. I enjoyed the combat hours more than I did the administrative hours. But, uh, that's why I went to law school. Never did practice law. And, uh, but I did, and, uh, I started practicing in Tompkinsville, I didn't like it; it was all so political. And I'd never been much of a politician. In fact, I'm a terrible politician. And, uh, then I went in the army. And I could see quickly there wasn't any future there in those days because I was serving with people who'd been lieutenant colonels during World War II who were still lieutenant colonels. Now this was in '58 and '59, fifteen, fourteen, fifteen years after the war was over. And I said, "There's no future here," and I was a captain at the time in field artillery. So I decided that, uh, the best thing to do is just, uh, go back and practice law, although it wasn't really what I wanted to do. And I wound up here in Glasgow, and I was only in Glasgow about, uh, two months until Louie Nunn walked in my little office over here, and asked me to come practice law with him. And I started practicing with Louie. And he was a great guy. And, uh, I stayed with him until he was elected governor. And, uh, then, uh, of course, he never did come back. (both laugh) I've been, I've been sitting here practicing since those days, but. FLINCHEM: Hm. TRAVIS: And, uh, but he was a, he was a great help to me. And, uh, he's really, really a good fellow. FLINCHEM: I imagine you've stayed in touch even after you weren't partners-- TRAVIS: -well, we, we, we stayed in touch, uh, until the last year he left. And that's, uh, that's another story in itself, because, uh, uh, Louie is a very emotional person. And I think he really got upset with me because I wouldn't support his son for governor. FLINCHEM: Really? TRAVIS: Steve Nunn. And I just wouldn't do it. And I couldn't, and, uh, because I represented Louie when Steve had sued him. And I represented Louie Nunn in this, the divorce case against Mrs. Nunn. And I'd been involved in all these things, and I just decided not to get into it. And Louie never mentioned it to me, and I never mentioned it to him, but I know that deep in his heart, it hurt him because I wouldn't come out and support his son. And I wouldn't do it. And so, he just seemed to the last, uh, few months he lived, he just seemed to deny that I ever existed. But I understand that because I, I understand Louie's love for his family, his devotion(??). I really did, because he was, he was, uh, one of the most tenderhearted people you'll ever know in your life. Big, softhearted ---------(??), contrary to what the news always made him out to be. I was the tough one. FLINCHEM: And you saw the other side of him. TRAVIS: Yeah, yeah, and he, uh, he was the same way when we practiced law together. And he ran for governor in, in what, uh, '63? Uh, I hired, we hired a woman that, uh, she'd been a court reporter here. The best stenographer, best secretary you ever seen in your life, but she had an alcohol problem. And while he was running, running for governor that year, it wasn't unusual for her not to show up on Mondays. Well, I had another one, you know, that, uh, filled in for her. And when he came back, he saw this was going on. And, uh, he said, "How you put up with this?" I said, "Well, it's not easy," but I said, "She needs a job, and she's really good when she does it, and I just keep hoping she'll straighten herself out." Well, he said, "She's got to go," says, "We've got to fire her." But he says, "You've got to do it." He wouldn't do it. (FLINCHEM laughs) You know, and people thought he was so tough, but he, he wasn't at all. He just wouldn't do it. So I had to do it, you know. I had to draw the sword and, uh, and get the job done for him, but, you know, he, he was just a good guy. Good guy. ---------- --(??) people don't, another thing they never understood and never known him. You had to know him personally to know how good a fellow he was. FLINCHEM: And see the soft side. TRAVIS: Oh, yeah. He had a soft side that was bigger than the hard side. I guarantee you--(laughs)--much bigger. They used to think he was so bad. Well, he was, I was the, I was the tougher conservative. He was liberal almost to me about things he did. (FLINCHEM laughs) He really was. (laughs) And when we started practice together, I was still a registered Democrat. FLINCHEM: Really? TRAVIS: Yeah, I changed to Republican with Barry Goldwater. Barry Goldwater convinced me that, uh, you know, that this is the way to go. And just what I'd experienced in life, I realized then we're getting too liberal. I thought we were destroying the principles of our country. And just like I'm talking about, uh, television today, all this stuff, I, I just think it's so harmful. You got to have a little bit more conservative leaning, but there's got to be a line that you got to hold somewhere. You got to be something you got to adhere to and stick to. FLINCHEM: Um, I know that western Kentucky has, has always been mostly Democratic-- TRAVIS: --yeah, um-hm-- FLINCHEM: --area. Um. TRAVIS: Well, it has been in Barren County. Uh, it's very simple because you could go up until recently--you can't do this any longer- -but a few years ago, back when Louie ran even, in '67 when he was last governor, you could go in any county in the State of Kentucky and see who was standing in the courthouse yard and know what their politics were. Now, you know what I mean when I say who was standing in the courthouse yard? FLINCHEM: Like, you couldn't get there if you were in the wrong party. TRAVIS: Well, if you look out my front window here in the courthouse yard on the east side of the courthouse, you'd see a statue standing there. FLINCHEM: A Confederate soldier. TRAVIS: Johnny Reb. A Democratic county. They were sympathetic to the Confederacy during the Civil, we'd call, we Confederates called the War Between the States. And, uh, and then you go to other counties, uh, Monroe, it's a Republican county, where I grew up. And my family were one of the very few Democrats over there. And, uh, it's the same way; they were, they were Democrats here. But my family came to Barren County at the end of the Civil War because they were run out of the place they were because they were Confederates. They were sympathetic to the South. They were in north central Tennessee, a place called Travisville, named after them. FLINCHEM: Hm. TRAVIS: And, uh, they had to leave there because of the guerilla activity. Left everything they had over there. And they came to the first county up in Kentucky, uh, that was sympathetic to the South. And this is where they settled, and we've all been here ever since; that's, uh, about one hundred forty years now. FLINCHEM: Hm. That's an interesting story. TRAVIS: Yeah, it is, and, uh, cause I, I was over there not too many years ago. Several years ago, I had a friend that was from over there, and, uh, they were dedicating a, one of these highway markers to the first battle in the Civil War in Tennessee. And it was at Travisville, of all places. And he said, uh, I grew, I knew this fellow when we were growing up together. His father was a doctor over there, and he went to school with me a couple of years in, in Tompkinsville after his mother passed away, lived with his grandparents. And he'd, he'd gotten wealthy out west in the electronic telephone business. And he said, "We want a real live Travis over here," said, "I decided to call you." I went over there, and I'd never been there before. And they knew all about it. And he took me to my, to the cemetery of my, uh, I don't have any great grandfathers that was, they, it was Thomas Travis that served in the Revolution, uh, from Maryland. And he, he, he was in 1737 and died in Travisville, Tennessee in 1837. And his son, uh, William Travis is buried there, and then the next one is Davy Crocket Travis, whose mother was a cousin of Davy Crocket, and he was buried out here in '88. And that's, that's the way they all got here. So, it was, it was interesting to go there and, and see that. But the most interesting thing to me that day was I had, uh, I attended a barbeque lunch over there. They had it at Pall Mall, Tennessee. You know where that is? You ever heard of Alvin York? FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: Sergeant York. FLINCHEM: Yes. TRAVIS: Well, I had the barbeque lunch that day with two of Sergeant York's sons. FLINCHEM: Really? TRAVIS: And I, I told my friend, uh, uh, Pinkley, I said, "Well, the highlight for me not even seeing my grandfather's grave, uh, from all those years, and the dedication of the marker, but it's sitting here and having lunch with Alvin York's sons." And, uh, he said, "Well," he said, "You know, my dad was Alvin York's, uh, personal doctor." I said, "No, I didn't know that." And he said, "Yeah," and I said, he said, "You ever been to his house?" I said, "No, I haven't." It was right across from where we were. York's Old Mill, they called it then. So he took me over and gave me a tour of Alvin York's house, and he'd been in there many times with his father, Trudy Alvin York. And it was, it was just a great thing to do, a great experience. FLINCHEM: It was a trip full of surprises, wasn't it? TRAVIS: Yeah, because I'd seen Alvin York once or twice, maybe, in my lifetime, when he'd come around on the Fourth of July, or Memorial Day, or something, you know, Armistice Day--they used to call Veterans Day- -to make speeches. And he didn't look anything like the fellow that portrayed him in the movie. Have you ever seen the movie Alvin York? Maybe you ought to look at it sometime, because, uh, Alvin York was a burly, good-size fellow, red headed. Had the complexion went with it. He's not at all like the guy in the movie. (both laugh) But I, but I remember him well just seeing him, you know. When you're hardly a kid that was a great experience. He was the greatest hero of World War I. (laughs) FLINCHEM: You said earlier that you never set out with the intention of going into politics. TRAVIS: I didn't. FLINCHEM: Tell me that story. TRAVIS: Well, I've never, I, I, I'm not a politician. And, uh, never have been, and never claimed to be, and, and never want to be. And, uh, but I'm always, I get so upset about what I see going on sometimes, I want to do something about it. And you want to get involved in it. Cause I've ran, uh, you know, two or three times for local offices to trying to straighten out something here, but they didn't want, people don't want that, you know, when you get down to it. And, uh, I was never interested in the state legislature at all. And, uh, uh, in the year that Reagan was elected president, I was a Reagan delegate to the National Convention in '76 when he was trying to get the nomination from then an incumbent President Gerald Ford. Now I met with Gerald Ford during that time too, when he solicited my vote, and I turned him down because I was for Reagan. And, uh, but I went to that convention, and, of course, then four years later, he was nominated and elected president. And four years later, I was the Second District chairman, Second -----------(??) chairman. And, uh, uh, they called me, uh, whoever the campaign chairman was at the time--I think it was Larry Forgy, if I remember correctly--oh, and wanted me to be the chairman for, in the campaign for Reagan. I said, "No, Larry." Said, "Politics is a game of addiction." I said, "Let's get someone else." I said, "I'm gonna do all I can anyway, you know that. So let's get someone else." And, uh, that's always been my idea about politics, cause I've never wanted anything particularly myself but to get other people involved in doing it(??). And after the election was over, uh, a, a friend-- well, I guess I, I use that term loosely. I'm not sure he's a friend of mine. (FLINCHEM laughs) Uh, a fellow named Walter Baker, who's a state senator at that, at that time, I received word from the--cause I had the inside track on everything politically that he didn't have, really, through, uh, certain people. And he wanted to get a job in Washington. And, uh, so, uh, I asked him one day, and he was almost defensive, like, you know, none of your business. I said, "Well, if you want a job in Washington, I'll tell you how to get it." I said, "I don't want one." And, uh, so I did, and I contacted a friend of mine, who was a Lee R. Nunn, who was, uh, Louie B. Nunn's brother, and one of the best guys that was ever on this earth. I mean, this guy is of such a stature to me. Just a great human being. But he was tremendously powerful in Washington. He's the one that started the committee to reelect the president when Nixon was there, and he was always right in the top of the hierarchy of everything up there. And so, I asked him, I said, "Would you, would you help this fellow get a job," and he didn't want to because he says, "He's a liberal." And I said, "Well, gosh," said, "You can give him a job that don't make any difference up there." I said, "Let him have a job if he wants to go." And after I finally persuaded him to recommend him, they said, "We'll only do it on one condition." And I said, "What's that?" He said, "That you'll, you'll run and take his place in the state Senate." I said, "Well, I'll consider it. But I'm not interested in it." Well, after the job came about and this fellow was gone, they called me up and said, "You said you would do this." I said, "That's not my recollection." (FLINCHEM laughs) I said, "My recollection is I told you I would consider it." And, uh, so they just, uh, they kinda twisted my arm. And so I got the party's nomination to be the replacement candidate in the fall. And, and, uh, and was lucky to win the election because I didn't, I didn't campaign any. Didn't spend any money. And, uh, I finished out that term, and then he came back and ran against me. Said I had his seat. Ad I thought, Well, that was strange, and, uh, I didn't intend to run again until the way he approached me about it. But I'm gonna tell you the truth about it. --------------(??)---------- He sat right across this desk from me in my other office, and he wanted to know what I was gonna do about his seat. I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, I'm, I'm resigning my position in Washington," which he exaggerated the stature of it. And, uh, he said, "I'm gonna come back, and I want my seat back." I said--and it just kindly, you know, the tone and the demeanor just didn't sit well with me, the way he said it, because I had no intention of running again. And if he had just been patient, you know. But, uh, I told him, I said, "Well, as long as I am the incumbent senator, you have to assume that I'll be a candidate for reelection." I said, "It's all I'm gonna tell you now." And I had no intention of running, so, uh. FLINCHEM: He talked you into it. TRAVIS: He talked, he persuaded me to do it. He really did. And I, I did work a little bit in that election and won it. And, uh, then it came around four years later, uh, he tried it again, and I just wasn't interested in being there. I wouldn't campaign. I wouldn't politic. I didn't feel it was worth it. I didn't feel it was worth my effort. Because you couldn't accomplish anything worthwhile up there. I really felt like I was wasting my time. And I wasn't really because, uh, I got some very, a few little things done, but nothing significant because you just couldn't accomplish anything with any merit to it up there. And a lot of things I wanted to do, but I couldn't do it. I, I didn't have a chance to do it. I used to, uh, you know, one thing I wanted to do, is a perfect example of it, I wanted to change the venue(??) statutes. Uh, so that like people in Barren County had to complaint or claim against the state, that they could try their case in the Barren Circuit Court, rather than going to the Franklin Circuit Court. See, it's an advantage to the government to be up there and a disadvantage to the citizens to take them out of their own(??) county. And I had the, I had a computer run, I think there was three or four hundred statutes that controlled that thing, and I was trying to figure out how I would do it. And I knew I couldn't do it in ---------(??). So I, I finally decided one day that, Well, I'm on four or five committees, I'll just sit in there, and when the opportunity comes up, I'll, I'll sneak an amendment on them. And I started doing that. And some other people noticed it. I remember one Democratic senator one day, I was on a committee, and he made a motion to do what I'd been doing, and I kinda looked at him, and he said, "I noticed what you was doing, and it's a pretty good idea." (FLINCHEM laughs) See, I'd never said anything about it. Because they agreed with it, but they didn't want to that openly support it because of the politics of it. So you could sit there very quietly and do things like that. And that's the way you had to do everything up there cause the most thing. Because most of the things, there're two of the most significant things I did while I was in the Senate; one of them was I got a campaign finance bill passed that provided if an individual contributed over a certain amount in the gubernatorial campaign--and I don't recall what that amount wound up being cause I started it out at one hundred dollars but I had to compromise it up to a larger amount, you know--but I got it passed in both houses that if they contributed over, say, five hundred dollars, whatever the amount was, they could not receive a contract or an appointment in state government. And God knows it ought to be that way now. Cause they're buying it. They own it. [Pause in recording.] TRAVIS: And, uh, it, it passed. And then, uh, who was the governor then, Wallace Wilkinson? I guess it was. He vetoed it. FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: And, uh, and the strange thing was, after he vetoed it, that's when the press noticed it. They hadn't even noticed it until then. And so all of the, most of the newspapers that generally would've been hostile to my position on things, well, they came out in support of it. And I had senators, like the one from Bowling Green at that time, Dr. Nick Kafoglis. He voted against everything I had because he was a liberal Democrat, and he came to me and he said, "I'm gonna support the override the veto of this bill." And I had it, I had it almost unanimously. And I could not get the, uh, Democrat leadership in the Senate to bring it to the floor, and I fought them for two days trying to get back to, bring it back for a vote, just because I think that was something that was so desperately needed and it's needed today. There's too much money in politics, and it all comes from the fat cats, and they control everything. My brother told me a few weeks ago, he said, "I have some regrets that I didn't get in politics and do more about these things." And my brother's done well financially, much better than I have. He's a good businessman. And I said, "Bill," I said, "You, you should never get into it." I said, "You can do more with your money than you ever can by being elected to public office." I said, "You can buy them and sell them." I said, "That's what it's all about." And I said, "Just use your contributions for the right people and the right causes, and you can have more influence than ever can as an elected official," and I mean, I seriously, sincerely believe that. I'm convinced of it. That's both at the federal and the, and the state level, too. It's awful. (laughs) It's awful. (laughs) So, usually I didn't enjoy that too much. FLINCHEM: So, would you say that the biggest obstacle to get anything like that passed was the leadership-- TRAVIS: --well-- FLINCHEM: --of the majority party? TRAVIS: Well, at that time. See, I was at one time the Republican floor leader. Just for one term. And, uh, I didn't want it anymore because you didn't have any power. You served on the rules committee, and the committee on committees, and things like that, you didn't do otherwise. But that didn't really mean that much because it was, you had a one- party situation. Uh, you had the, uh, governor of one party, and both houses controlled one party, and it was strange because, uh, some of my best friends in the Senate were, were conservative Democrats from west Kentucky. They thought like I did, but they were, you know, they wouldn't vote that way. (laughs) And, and they, and they used to come to me, I remember one time. I'm not gonna mention this person's name because it wouldn't be fair to her. But her husband had been in, uh, in the Senate at one time, and she was there. And, and she would come to me--just as an example of one of them--and she had a problem with something, but she said, "We need to kill this thing. We need to stop it." "Well," I said, "I'm with you if you want to do it." "But," she said, "I can't do it. I've got to work with these people." And says, "You don't have to." You see? FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: And so, I would, if the, if they would commit to me to support it, I would make the bold move, they would call it, to, to destroy it, and they would go along with me to kill something. It was amazing how you could do things like that. But I, I worked with most of the, the Democrats very well. And, uh, because I found that the west Kentucky Democrats were just as conservative, maybe more so, than a lot of the eastern Kentucky Republicans. FLINCHEM: Really? TRAVIS: You know, the party didn't mean that much. It really didn't. And, uh, that bothered me because, uh, I thought that most of the Democratic senators, when I was there, were conservative. And that wasn't always true of the Republican senators. And it certainly wasn't true in the Republican House. They weren't that conservative. The Democrats, there were a lot more conservative Democrats when you look at them. [telephone rings] And the people, they don't seem to comprehend that, the difference there is. But it is, it is huge. FLINCHEM: Do you think that has changed very much over the past few years? TRAVIS: I don't know. I, I haven't been around there for, what? Uh, how many years now? Seventeen, eighteen years. Uh, I haven't been up there at all except, uh, until I think it was, what, uh, probably in 2004. Is that the year of the gubernatorial election? FLINCHEM: Yeah. TRAVIS: Yeah, uh, David Williams called me, Senator David Williams. And, uh, of course, he came to the Senate when I was over there. And, uh, he wanted to know if I would serve on the Legislative Ethics Commission. And, uh, I said, "Well, David, I'm not interested to be perfectly frank." And, uh, I said, "I don't think there is any merit in the ethics laws, and there's no peace in it. And, uh, I just don't know that I even wanna be a part of it." "Well," he said, "I wish you would do it, and, uh, do it just for me for awhile." And so I, I told him, I said, "Well, what time do they meet? You know, what days of the month." I said, "If I can work it out where I can meet in Frankfort and not have to spend the night in Frankfort, I'll do it." But I said, "I don't want anything that requires me to be in Frankfort overnight." He said, "Well, that's shocking." I said, "Well, that's exactly the way I feel about it." See, I had a daughter in Frankfort then. I had a son in Lexington, so I'd visit with them. And it made the trip worthwhile. But, uh, I agreed to serve on it, and I served about two years. And, uh, then I, I asked, well, I asked them shortly after I went in to find somebody else because there, that's, that's such a joke. You know, the things they piddle with over there, and the petty little crap they piddle with, and the big things, you know, the elephants are just running through, all over the cabbage patch and they don't even see it. (both laugh) You know, they really don't. You know, uh, and, uh, I see things everyday that, uh, uh, legislators that really just disgust me. You know, we had, all the time I was there, we had a fellow in the House from here. This is not gonna be published, or anything, is it? FLINCHEM: Only if you give it permission to be. TRAVIS: No, because-- FLINCHEM: --whatever you give permission for. TRAVIS: Well, we, we had a fellow that was in the House for years and years, and he was master commissioner of the court. And it's a, it's a clear violation of the state constitution. And you see those all the time. I know a state senator right now, and a state senator who's, he's got a fulltime job with a, with a area development district, which is a conflict of interest. And when I was state senator, they would send me these letters, and make these phone calls, telling me I was now a member of their board, and I'd tell them, "No, I'm not." I said, uh, "I refuse to serve on the board of the area development district because it's a conflict of interest, and my duty as a state senator." Well, that's another bunch of enemies(??). I made enemies of everybody. But, see, now, if, if people just look around you, somebody -------- ---(??), and then they wanted me to serve on the ethics commission, and I knew all these things going on all the time, I couldn't live with. I couldn't live with myself, cause I knew one day I'm just gonna let them all have it, and that would be the end of it. So, I just, uh, I quietly, uh, resigned and, and got out of it. Because, uh, there's no point in, uh, in just being the lightening rod all the time. FLINCHEM: I've heard you have a nickname. TRAVIS: "No Lane" FLINCHEM: "No Lane" TRAVIS: Yeah. Yeah, I'm proud of it. They, uh, they got to calling me "Senator No Lane." And I'm proud of it because I probably have cast more no votes than, uh, probably anyone who ever served in the legislature, and particularly during, for the time that I was there compared to the period because I, I had, I had certain philosophies about legislation and bills. Uh, most of them are special interest things. They were all just to do with one group against the majority. Really that's what it's all about. Uh, and, uh, but I, I, when I went to the Senate, I had, I had certain guidelines that I applied to myself. And first of all, I didn't vote for a bill I had never read. And I didn't vote for a bill that, that, uh, I couldn't understand what it was doing. There were a lot of them you couldn't understand what they're doing because they're fragments, you know, and, and they've got the, they've got some high powered attorneys writing these things up, and you, and you don't see where it fits in the puzzle. They did, you know, and it takes a lot of research to do that. Well, I, I wouldn't vote for it if I hadn't read it, and if I couldn't see where it fit, I wouldn't vote for it, and if I didn't agree with it, I wouldn't vote for it. And boy, that just darn near eliminated all of them. (both laugh) No, I, I'll never forget the clerk in the Senate. She used to laugh at me because, uh, late in every session, they'd have a, a thing they call the consent calendar. You may not know, you may not know what that is, but they post all these bills that came out of the committees, you know, the Senate unanimously with a recommendation they could pass. And they're not even put up for debate on the floor. And they had a, they did it then with projector. Had all this list of bills up there on the big screen. And, uh, of course, we had a list of them too. And I'd go down that list, and on a yellow pad, just like this, and I'd write out House Bill so-and-so, No. You know, or Senate Bill, whatever it was, No. And I'd turn, sign it, and turn it into the clerk. And I can see her now. Every time I would walk up that aisle--(laughs)--and hand her that list. I'd just say no to them. And nobody else paid any attention to them. And some of the God-awfulist things went through like that, you know. If you're familiar with the legislature, you have noticed, and if you haven't in the past, you just notice in the future, that they spend most of these sessions when they go back up there trying to straighten out, uh, correct part of the messes they made the last time. And, and you, you can't believe what they do. I remember one time when I first got there, and, uh, that there was a very respected state senator and I, I liked him, and I developed a lot of respect for him, too, of the other party, and he had a bill up for passage on the floor. And I'd read it, and I said, "Gosh, how could anybody want to do that?" It had to do with, uh, with, uh, granting district judges, uh, certain extraordinary rights as the probation. (laughs) And it just seemed to me like it was going too far. And I, I'd read the bill, and this fellow sat right in front of me, and I reached up and-- [Pause in recording.] TRAVIS: Yeah, I, I tapped him on the shoulder, and, of course, I got his attention, and, uh, and I, I just inquired. I said, "Do you really want to do this?" And he said, "No, why do you say that." I said, "Well, I read your bill, and I think that's what it does." And, uh, he got the bill out, and he read it, and he says, "Oh, my God." He said, "I didn't intend to do that." And, and what he said to me then really floored me. He said, "You know, I haven't even really read that bill." I said, "You haven't read your own bill?" He said, "No." He said, uh, had the committee draft it, and it came out of the committee in the Senate unanimously, everyone supporting it, and it's on the floor for passage, and he hadn't even read his own bill. Now, you want to know how things operated over there. And I don't imagine its any better today. And, uh, but I guarantee this, uh, I earned his respect by doing that, because I didn't, I didn't go in there to embarrass him. Now there was a time that I did decide to do that, when they were running so much stuff through. And, and, uh, I convinced the Republican caucus--and there weren't but ten of us at the time--that, that we should each, we would meet before each session, and we would compare the bills, and discuss the ones that were coming on the floor for a vote, and what we should do about them, and then we would assign one of our members to, uh, to openly oppose it in the floor. And, uh, we had a couple of preachers, and that helped a lot too, because that took care of all the alcohol bills. (both laugh) But, but, but these things would come up, and, uh, and I said, "Well, let's, let's do more than that. Let's just, let's just ask questions of the sponsors because," I said, "these people haven't read these bills. And they don't know what's in them." And I said, "If we embarrass them, we'll keep them from bringing them up." And it worked. You can't believe the, we had one senator, that was again a Democrat and he's a friend of mine, and we agreed on most things. He would come to me every day before we would go to the Senate floor, and he says, "Well, what are the meatballs today?" You know, what a meat, what he was referring to? In World War II, they referred to the Japanese, to the Rising Sun on their planes as meatballs, and he says-- FLINCHEM: --shoot them down. TRAVIS: "Yeah," he says, "I want to know, uh, how many meatballs you picked out today." (FLINCHEM laughs) And, uh, I would tell him. And he was a, he was a, I considered him, he was a businessman and very conservative about it, too, and he was interested in it too, and he's a Democrat. But, yeah, he was the one that named them meatballs. And so, we would pick out the meatballs. And I remember one good friend. I hated to do it to him one day. I, I asked him, it was something that had to do with the air force aviation. I knew a little about that because I did fly an airplane. And, and, uh, had that sort of, and I asked him some questions about what he was gonna do, and he couldn't answer anything. (laughs) He lost it all on the floor, and I thought he would be madder than the devil, but he said, he says, "My God, that's the last time I ever do that." He says, "I'm never gonna introduce anything else like that unless I know what it is." I said, "Well, that was my only point." I said, "I didn't want to do any harm to you personally, but I didn't want that bill passed." But he said to me--that guy was a heck of a nice guy--and he said, "I'll never do that again." I said, "Well, that was my point." FLINCHEM: Do you think that happens very often where bills get twisted out of shape and sponsors don't even realize-- TRAVIS: --oh yeah-- FLINCHEM: --what's in them? TRAVIS: Oh yeah, because, uh, people don't realize it, but, uh, most of the legislation--in fact, I would say 99 plus percent of it--well, probably a 100 percent of it is written by the staff of the Legislative Resource Commission. Did you know that? These, legislators don't write these bills; they don't even write their resolutions. They're all written by the staff up there. And all they do is put in a bill request. And they want a bill that does so and so. And they turn it over to the bureaucrats, the, uh, staff, and those people are good. I mean, I had, I had a lot of respect for the Legislative Research Commission staff when I was there. In fact, most of them turned out to be my friends, because I, I found out in a strange way, they agreed with me more than I expected. And, uh, and they write the bills, they draft the legislation. And they're people who put bills up there that have no earthly idea what they do, and they're the principle sponsors. I, I, a guy sat next to me, and I'll not mention his name because he may still be living, but he's from Jefferson County, and we got to be pretty good friends. But he was always running through there a bunch of bills that had to do with, uh, conversion of stock and mutual insurance companies and everything, you know. And frankly, you couldn't look at that bill out of context and have any idea what it meant in the overall, uh, statute or in the law, you know, and I couldn't, and I'd, I'd say, "Bill," I said, "What does this bill do?" I said, "I've always voted against all these things you, you put up a passage cause I don't understand them." And he said, "I don't either." He said, "I don't know what it does." FLINCHEM: I'd be afraid to have my name associated with something I didn't understand. TRAVIS: Well, listen, that, it goes on all the time. I, I remember another fellow sat in that chair one day, I already mentioned his name once here or there, I won't mention it again. But he came in here, and he wrote it, uh, he, uh, co-sponsored Brereton Jones's, uh, health insurance reform bill. And I asked him, I said, "What in the hell did you vote for that thing for? And what did you, why did you sponsor that? That's gonna kill us. It's gonna destroy the state." And he said, "Oh, it wasn't gonna pass anyway." But he came up and did it again the next session, same, about as bad. And they set up a board in it. I had some board members that paid him about $80,000 a year and that was, what, about ten years ago? And, uh, it turned out that, uh, Jones had made a deal, he was gonna appoint him to that board. Now, if that tells you anything. And, of course, I had already gotten on him about the first one, the first time, and here he comes up and does it again, and, uh, you know, he was gonna get a job out of it. And, uh, and if you know anything about that, that had, that had to all be, uh, had to all be, uh, rescinded and modified in many ways because it was, the legislation was a disaster; ran half the insurance companies out of Kentucky where they couldn't write(??) health insurance. And like most things the government does like that, it's not all, it's not for the people; it's for one group of business people or one, one group of special interest over another group. And they're all, they're all in there, making their pitch for what they want. And, uh, that's where all the campaign contributions come from. I, I used to receive calls from my friends in the State Senate after I left. Uh, they asked me about something, said, "What do you think about this?" And I'd tell them, and they'd say, "Well, what do you think so and so will do on this bill? You know them pretty well." And I said, "Well, I don't know what they will do now," but I said, "Let me tell you what's the first thing you do." I said, "Go look at their campaign finance report. And see if these people contributed to them, this interest did." And I said, "That will answer your question." That didn't always mean they were bought by that special interest group. It meant one of two things; they were bought in a lot of cases, but it also meant that these people understood that that person supported their goals and ambitions and things. And they were supporting them. So it doesn't always mean they were bought. Uh, I found that out with the Kentucky Farm Bureau up there. They had a, a lobbyist. One, he was considered the top dog(??), the number one lobbyist in the legislature. And I had a lot of respect for him. I had a lot of, uh, lunches with him in the, uh, in the cafeteria and Annex over there, and he never one time, all the time I was there, mention any legislation to me. We were just friends. And, uh, about the time I was finishing up there, I, I had lunch with him one day, and I said, "I want to ask you something." I said, "I've been here this six or seven years, and you and I had lunch together many times." And I said, "You've never once lobbied me or mentioned me on any legislation." And I said, "I, I know that you have with others around here because I know that you influenced them." I said, "They tell me that what you say goes with them." And it was true. He said, "I didn't have to." He said, "You basically agree with all our, our goals and principles." This is Kentucky Farm Bureau, just to give you an idea, told me he didn't have to. Says, says, "You know, you're, you're either in line with our thinking, or we're in line with yours, whichever way you want to look at it." And it was. You, you look at their, their program, it was basically my philosophy. (laughs) And he knew that. FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: So he didn't have to, but then they would, that, that same fellow wound up in another station lobbying for one of the, uh, one of the cell phone companies. I don't remember whether it was South Central, uh, Bell or who. And, uh, uh, the legislators didn't know it. And I was still there at the time. Well, I knew it. But he never did contact me anyway. But, uh, he was getting these people to support this cell phone legislation, and they thought he was doing it for Farm Bureau. The Farm Bureau is a pretty powerful group. And he was, he was working for the telephone phone company. I always thought that was so funny because-- FLINCHEM: --yeah-- TRAVIS: --they thought he was still a Farm Bureau lobbyist, and he wasn't at all at the time. It's so fascinating to watch the way things go. I used to, I used to have breakfast every day with a bunch of lobbyists. And, uh, you know why? They knew more about what was going on up there than I did. I used to meet over there in the cafeteria and eat my, my, uh, gravy and sausage on biscuit over there--where I gained a lot of weight unfortunately while I was there--and, uh, then just listen to them because, uh, they knew what was going on. They controlled it. I didn't. And they gave me a lot of infl-, and for some reason, uh, we had a mutual respect. And, and they were very helpful because I could find out what was going on. It's a, it's a very interesting thing, but it's kinda frightening too. But you know it works, the system works. It's the best system in the world, but, uh, it's not perfect. It's, uh, it's far from perfect, but it, it generally works out okay. You know. I don't agree with a lot of things they do. I just get frightened every time I see the legislature meet. Because I always took the attitude when I was there, and I told them, I said, "Well, instead of meeting once every, every two years for sixty days, we should meet once every sixty years for two days." (both laugh) The people probably be better off with what you do. And that's generally true because most of the stuff they do is for special interest. It's not for the people of the whole. I ran into a lobbyist one time at a funeral, a couple of years ago. And there was a whole group of lobbyist there because the father of one of these lobbyists, who his father happened to be a friend of mine. He was from here in Barren County, and it was in an adjacent county. And his son was a lobbyist for a group out of Louisville. And, and, uh, all these lobbyist were there at the funeral home. And we were all standing there, talking, you know. And, uh, it was, it was just so interesting to hear their comments on it, again, after, after those years, you know, because of how things had really not changed. And they were telling me, you know, it's all the same. Just, just all over again. Says, uh, says, "People never could understood why you vote no all the time." And said, "We did because you seemed to have the best interest of the people as a, as a whole at heart rather than just special interest." And said, "Most people don't do that." Said, "We don't, we represent special interest here," but they all understand that. They're not idiots. They're smart people. They're capable people. And you got to respect them. They just doing their job. (laughs) That's what it's all about. But I never, I never enjoyed it. Uh, uh, I did enjoy the fights, sometimes. FLINCHEM: Really. TRAVIS: Yeah, I always enjoy a good fight. And, uh, in fact, Louie Nunn once said that to me. He came in one time while I was up there and wanted to know how things was going, how I liked it. I said, "Louie, frankly most of the time I sit there and I'm bored to death. And I ask myself, Why in the world am I here, you know." But I said, "Every once in a while something will come up, and I find I can accomplish something." He said, and, "I'll, you know, I'll get involved in it and I'll get a little something done, and it seems to almost make it worthwhile." But he says, "Well, I knew you would enjoy it when it got to be a fight, you know." And that's what it had to be, because I always often compared myself to, to an old water moccasin just laying around on the bank of the swamp, you know. And every once in a while there would come some prey along that I could grab, you know. (both laugh) That's a, that's kinda the way the whole thing was. You know, an example of the, uh, party system, the way it works, I had a good friend who worked for a, uh, task force for the Department of Justice against organized crime. He'd been a newspaper editor one time. And he was older than me and a very capable person. And he was a United, a special United States attorney at that time working out of Washington. And, uh, he somewhere picked up where I was, uh, working on legislation having to do with conflict of interest and things like this, which I was very much concerned about, to try to get all this money out of the government. And, and he called me, and we got to exchanging information together, and he was, he was working with this organized, uh, crime task force. And, uh, he said, "Well, if you look at this bill from this state," said, "We ran into this one the other day." So he was helpful to me. And, uh, we just had, uh, we, uh, we discussed those things, and, uh, I, I decided one time that, uh, we needed a whistleblower bill. And if you noticed in the news, it's very been, very prominent the last few years, the whistleblower bill. And, uh, so I drafted the whistleblower bill. And, uh, brought it up in the Senate, and I could not get it out of the Senate state government committee. The chairman was Ed Ford who was state Senator, I think, he was from Cynthiana and was later Patton's, uh, uh, chief honcho in his office there, chief of staff, whatever. And he's a veterinarian up there. But he wouldn't even bring it up for hearing because I was a Democrat--I mean because I'm a Republican. He, he was very partial, extremely partial. And, uh, so I wasn't having any luck with it, and I had a lady who worked for me. And I think she lived in Lexington. Her name was Gaynell(??) ----------(??). I don't know whether she is still up there or not. But she came to me one day and she says, "Senator," says, "I been attending these meetings of the, uh, state workers and employees in Lexington." And said, "They all kinda like your bill." And said, "They, uh, they like it but there's one thing wrong with it." I said, uh, I told her, I said, "Gaynell(??), I know what's wrong with it: I'm a Republican; it's a Republican bill. That's what's wrong with it." She said, "That's right," and, of course, she was too. "Well," I said, "let me tell you what you do. You go back over there and tell those people that they get one of the Democrat state representatives out of Fayette County to introduce that bill. Just ask him to ask for a draft of a, of a whistleblower bill and introduce it." And she said, "I will." And well, the next thing I know, uh, I kept watching and, uh, I noticed where there's a, uh, a state representative named Bill Lear out of Lexington, who is a prominent attorney up there now, had introduced this bill that seemed to be the whistleblower bill. So, uh, I go get the bill and look at it, and it's my bill, word for word, column for column, period for period. And, uh, so I go to the, uh, I, I ran into Lear one day, and I said, uh, "Representative Lear, I noticed you have a good bill. And if there's any way I can help you, let me know." Of course, he looked down his nose at a Republican, you know. I can see him looking at me now, the attitude they had. So I went to the Republican caucus in the House. And, uh, I explained it to them. I said, "Now just keep your mouth shut. But just understand, this is the same bill I filed in the Senate. And if it comes up in your committees, don't say a word; just vote for it, and let it go. When it comes up on the floor of the Senate, don't say a word, just vote for it, and let it go." But it passed the House not quite unanimously. And then it came back to the Senate, and, of course, I advised their, their caucus because I was tracking this thing all the time. The Republicans, I said, "This is my same bill and explained to them." I says, "Just don't say a word. Let's just all sit there and vote yes." I said, "That, that'll floor the Democrats because it'll scare the devil out of them when we all vote yes on it." and, uh, so it came to the Senate. I think it passed in the Senate. It may have passed the Senate, I think it came out of the Senate committee unanimously, and went on to the consent calendar that I was talking about earlier, and passed without a vote against it, and it became the law of the state. And that's the way you had to get things. It wasn't easy, uh, but I, but I thought that, that one was probably worthwhile my time there because the first one they got under that bill, the first state employee or official was the, uh, uh, fellow that was, uh, secretary of, commissioner of agriculture at one time. He got caught under it. And, of course, they've been using it against Fletcher here lately, you know, the, uh, whistleblower bill. They're using that as a defense. And it's, it's come up repeatedly, cause it gives, it supposedly gives protection to the state worker that will, will, uh, make public, uh, some, uh, illegal or false act that's going on. But it wasn't easy. But I, I worked on things like that all the time, and I worked hard when I was there. I, I tried to read every bill that came to the floor and passage(??). I didn't read every bill because they didn't all get there, but if it came to the floor of the Senate for passage, I read it. And that took a lot of time to do it, a lot of time to do it. And I still voted no on most of them. (both laugh) And, and, but I don't miss it. There's times that I, I say, "Well, I wish I were there. Maybe I could do something about this." But I know better. Deep in my heart I know it would be almost impossible to do anything about these things, the way the system works, and it doesn't make any difference which party it is. Because, as I mentioned to you before, being a Republican doesn't mean you're conservative; being a Democrat doesn't mean you're liberal. It doesn't mean that at all. It, uh, and to me, what it's all about, whether you're, you're ----------(??) our founding father, which is a limited government, like Jefferson, or you're of this modern age of, like so many of our judges are, you know. They write the law to suit themselves, whatever their personal views are on things, and that's not what it's all about. I think we should go back to, I think what they call is the original intent, what our founding fathers intended. And if we don't agree with that, we ought to amend the Constitution the way our founding fathers provided it to be amended. And that's what, and to me, that's the way this country should be. FLINCHEM: Who are some of your favorite presidents of all time? TRAVIS: Well, uh, now, my, I think, I think Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a great president. Uh, he started a lot of things that, uh, have gotten out of control now, but at the time, I could understand why he did it, you know, in the days of the Depression, the New Deal-type things. Uh, and surprisingly, uh, uh, I think Harry Truman was a great president. And I'm talking about the ones that, you know, in my lifetime. FLINCHEM: What did you like about Harry Truman? TRAVIS: Well, I just think that he had just good common horse sense and did the right thing. And, uh, to me, that meant a lot. Eisenhower was a, was a good president. He, uh, and, uh, Lyndon Johnson's the worst one we've had during my, my lifetime. And believe it or not, when, uh, when he became President, I thought he might be, he might be a better one because I thought he'd be a southern conservative, but he turned out to be everything but that. Uh, Kennedy didn't do anything. I mean, if he hadn't been assassinated, he'd probably been impeached. But, uh, yeah--(laughs)--he's, he's a myth, to me. Uh, but, uh, I, I think that, uh, well, Ronald Reagan was a good president. And, uh, one of the most capable presidents we ever had was Richard Nixon. And he was also one of the most stupid. That may sound like but that man was brilliant. I met him personally cause I, I met Reagan and, uh, Nixon and Gerald Ford, and, and the other day, I met this George Bush we got now, and all those people. But no, I think, I think that, you know, regardless of party and philosophy and so forth that, uh, Roosevelt was, I think Roosevelt was a great president at the time and place he was there. In my lifetime, and I think Truman was. And I think Reagan was. And think those are the ones, I'm not so sure that when time goes by, I don't know how this one is gonna be judged. You know, uh, this is a tough thing right now, and, uh, he could be, uh, considered more highly than we think of him today because he seems to have something that most of them don't have. This guy has some principle to him. And, uh, that means a lot to me. He seems to have a little steel in him. (laughs) And a lot of them don't have. You know, and he may have it, and the, and in the long run, if his decisions have been right, he may be considered better than we think he ever will be. But in, you know, over the ages, uh, there is no doubt that George Washington was great. Not what he did as president but just for the fact that he didn't seek reelection. You know, Washington was always one of those people that, he, he laid down the standards and the principles for the country, basic principles. And, of course, I've always been a Jeffersonian, and I still am. I think Thomas Jefferson was just a, uh, a fantastic person, you know, from the Declaration of Independence to the Statutes of, of Kentucky, Virginia, whichever, he was just a great person. And, and unquestionably, uh, Lincoln was. But I say that somewhat guardedly because I often, I have never been able to understand why we had to have a Civil War. To be perfectly frank. I, I don't understand how we couldn't have avoided that. And that bothers me. It bothers me to this day, because I have, uh, I have always been, uh, a history student, majored in history in college when I got out of pre-med. And I'm a avid reader of history. And, uh, I just never understood as a country how we got ourselves into the, into the American Civil War. It just doesn't make any sense, you know. I just think that, uh, if, you know, we should have pulled, the Union should have pulled out of Fort Sumter. And definitely the South shouldn't have fired on it either, but, you know, both sides, it's a stupid little thing. But it just shouldn't have ever happened because we, over time we could've resolved the differences. Uh, historically we'd already come so far in resolving the problems that existed in those days because slavery was at its end. And anybody studying history knows we were not importing slaves when the Civil War started. The only slaves they had were those that were born and bred here because we had already gotten, they had already gotten that far along. I could never, I could never understand how anybody could support slavery. It's just, it's just beyond my comprehension how anyone could enslave another person, you know. But if you understood the agriculture at the time, and most people did not then and don't today, that the prime export of this nation before the Civil War was Southern cotton, and people don't realize it. And Southern cotton meant slave labor. And, uh, you know, its economics, I guess. You know, it could be, this whole thing in the Persian Gulf now is over oil, too. Crude oil. That bothers me because, uh, but if it is, we don't have much choice because we could have our country wrecked if we don't have it right now, because we're so dependent on it. And sometimes you just have to do these things. And it's frightening when you think about it. You know, what are we gonna do? I wish to goodness that some, someone would come up with a hydrogen engine or something like that. I think all these other things they fantasize about are not gonna work, just like ethanol. When I was in the Senate, they were, they were, the state was subsidizing an ethanol plant down at, uh, Franklin in Simpson County, which is in my Senate district. And, uh, I hated to vote for that thing worse than anything in the world. And, uh, one of the lobbyist who was working on it--of course, the Farm Bureau was for it--and, but, uh, the only reason I actually supported it was cause it was in my district. And I said, "That's a violation of my own principles." I said, "I shouldn't do that." And the last I did I told the lobbyist--who is the same guy who lobbied for Standard Oil Company and now works for A.I.K., I noticed the other day--uh, I told him, I said, "Now, this is the last time." I said, "You all do something else because I will never support any, uh, any subsidizing of this industry again because it's not feasible." I said, "There's no way that you're gonna replace gasoline with ethanol because ethanol is so much more expensive." Now when gasoline becomes expensive enough, you'll have a product. But you don't have it." See, they still don't. Ethanol is so much more expensive today than, than gasoline is, crude oil prices. It's still not a feasible thing. The solution is gonna be something like, uh, hopefully, hydrogen, and Lord with the, the technology and the scientific ability the people in this country have, we'll find a solution to it. I am eternally optimistic that we'll do the right thing when the time comes. FLINCHEM: Soon I hope. (laughs) TRAVIS: Oh, I do too. I hope it's soon. But, you know, it's just like gasoline now. Gasoline, uh, has not kept up with the rate of inflation in prices. If gasoline had been increasing its rate in place of everything else, it would probably be well over three dollars and a half, four dollars a gallon now. It hasn't. And, uh, that's what amazes me, because, you know, everything else almost has. Uh, because of, of course, one of my prime concerns today is our medical situation in this country. I don't know how we are gonna provide medical care for people, and I don't know how we are gonna pay for it. And it just breaks my heart. I see people every day. They can't afford health insurance. And, uh, the employers can't afford it. I know small employers now; they just can't continue to afford to pay health insurance for their employees. And then every time you see something that, uh, in medical expenses, you're being ripped off. And I mean literally. I'm just, I'm, I'm retired military. See, I retired as a lieutenant colonel field artillery. And, uh, after my, after four years of guard reserve, I really didn't do anything last twenty years because I was just on the ready recall list. But, uh, I, I did get enough time in to retire. So I, I qualify for, for, uh, retirement benefits, and you cannot believe what benefits they provide to retirees on the Department of Defense. They call it Tri-Star now. And, uh, the only medication I take is blood pressure medicine for hypertension. And I'd been taking one that cost me seven or eight dollars a month. And, uh, they changed it to one, it started, it was about ten times then. And, uh, I'm back down to the cheaper one now, but I got something in the mail, oh, a month ago or so ago, from the Department of Defense that they have a system that you can order these by mail. And it saves our government--and by the government, I mean our taxpayers--it saves them 50 percent, 40 to 60 percent. So I got on the internet, and I said, "I'm gonna do that because, you know, that's not much, but every little bit counts and every little bit helps because all I've got is that one little medication I take." I take a baby aspirin a day and that little Lotrel pill that probably thirty of them cost you eight or ten dollars now. And, uh, but I said, "That's that much, you know, because it's saving the taxpayer of this country that money." I hope it works because I never have got it in the mail, but I, I, I did have here in the next week. I don't see how the system works. I hope it does, because I see, you go, you go to pharmacies now--I don't know what it is now, but I was told last year that the starting salary for people right now out of pharmacy school is $75,000 to $85,000 dollars a year. Now you think about the money that ------------(??). And, uh, how do you do that? Uh, uh, I thought, I found it interesting the other day. I was looking at something here, they were talking about getting a cost(??) in here and something Fletcher wouldn't add to the special session which he shouldn't have. He did the right thing. This man gets criticized so much. I don't think he's been that bad. I think, politically, he got the dumbest(??) bunch in the world around him, but, you know, bunch of ---------(??), but when you really get down to what he done, he ain't done that badly. But he was trying to justify this, and I was, I was looking at that, and they, they were comparing the, uh, average wage in Barren County, you know, which is $ 8.56, according to those figures. But what, it was pretty interesting to note, that doesn't include the government salaries. And cause, see, the government is so much higher. And, uh, you know, we've gone now to local government. We pay our mayor down here--and he doesn't have a darn thing to do, except cut ribbons--$50,000 dollars a year, and just three years ago, they were paying $3000 a year. Now, ----------(??) automobile, paying $50,000 a year, charges full retirement from another state, another Republican job. You know, it's unbelievable, all this double dipping and stuff that goes on. And nobody's gonna do anything about it. But there's so much waste. And it's just, it's just going out everywhere you look. It's unreal. I was city attorney here from '64 to '70. In fact, I wrote the ordinance that the occupation tax that brings in all the money now. And when I wrote that ordinance, the budget of the city of Glasgow was under a half million dollars a year. Now it's into twenty-five or thirty million. And they spend it like drunken sailors. Uh, when I was city attorney, I think the highest I was ever paid, and I was representing the city and the water company, and I represented the airport board for a dollar a year, and all these other boards just for a dollar a year. I thought it was a public service. And now last time I was told--I don't know what it is currently cause I haven't looked at it in a couple of years--but they spend over one hundred thousand dollars a year for the city attorney. And, and it's just unbelievable the way they do these things. And the money they've got. The, uh, the, uh, councilmen, they're all now got their own health insurance paid because they're a member of the city council. They've got a retirement plan for them. And it's ridiculous, just like the legislators have. Why in the world we have a retirement plan for legislators? You know, a part-time job? To me, I think it's one of the worse things that's happened cause I think you keep people up there for that reason alone that shouldn't even be there in the first place. I'm a, I'm a, a real believer that people shouldn't stay around too long. And I don't care where they is, whether it's in the Congress of the United States, or in, or in the state legislature. Uh, I, I don't know quite what to do personally about term limits, but, uh, the people should rise up and turn them out. But they won't because the power of incumbency is terrific. You have so much influence as an incumbent that a challenger doesn't have. I don't know what they're gonna do about it. But we just shouldn't have all these people standing up here on the gravy train all the time. The longer they're there the more evil they do. And the more tricks they learn to play on the taxpayers. And that's exactly what they're doing. They're, we'd be better off with a bunch of freshman, green senators, and representatives in both Frankfort and in Washington. If they had a little principle to them. (laughs) But we're not gonna get that. I mean, that's, that's wishful dreaming because it's not gonna happen that way. That's not the way the system's geared now. FLINCHEM: Do you think most voters are too complacent? They just don't show enough concern about things? TRAVIS: Yeah, well, most voters, they're strange. Uh, most voters, uh, are special interest themselves. They have such a narrow mind about what they're after. They, they don't consider the whole picture. Uh, you take any particular group, and, uh, I'll, I'll give you an example, one group here, they opposed me when I was started, and I don't know why they did, but, uh, when I first ran for the Senate, uh, the optometrist, they're just one group, always opposed me. And I didn't know why, but I, I did except that the local optometrist here, the leader of them was a former Democrat chairman, you know, was the only thing I could figure out. But, uh, uh, but, but, you know, it did, but that didn't bother me. Well, then I got in the Senate, and was there a, a term or two, and, uh, they came up. They had a bill up there. They wanted to permit optometrist to write prescriptions for certain medications. Well, optometrists are not doctors. And I said no. And it failed the first time. Well, they finally got it through because that just made them, they spent more money trying to get me then. But there're people that are optometrists that you would normally, you know, might be inclined, but they won't because that's all they think about, is you don't, you won't support our bill to let us write prescriptions, and that's what so many of the people in this country, voters, boil down to. It's some little thing they're interested in. And it's, like, so many, so much talk about these, uh, the so-called religious right issues. I really don't know anyone that is that strong on those issues that they would not, that they would let, uh, person's vote on one thing override everything else. Now I hear much criticism of religious right, and I'm one of those that believe we should have prayer in school, cause I think it's what this country was founded on. I think it's one of the problems now. We don't have anything in school. We don't have any discipline. You know, it's not money in education anymore; it's lack of discipline. And that's, that's a essential part of it. but, uh, I, I don't know those people would vote just for that one reason, and even those that you hear talking a lot about it, I think there's always other things. I don't think they're that narrow on that issue. But thank God it is an issue, because I don't know what we're gonna do if we lose all our principles. You know, we just got to have a little bit of decency and morality somewhere in this country. And it's got to come, where else is it gonna come from? I don't know where it's gonna come from. I, I think the churches have failed us miserably because everybody's political with everybody else anymore. (laughs) I mean really, I really do! Uh, it's disappointing to me. But somewhere you got to have that basic sense of decency about everything and a basic sense of honesty. And I don't know how you find it. You certainly don't want to be in politics if you want to try to be decent and honest. Particularly honest, because it's no place for it. You can't survive. And, uh, I seen people get into it, get started, and then they fail, because they're honest(??). You know, and, but, and, uh, unfortunately, they fail, but the ones who succeed tend to put their wet finger up in the wind and go with it, you know, whichever way it goes, and that's the way they go, and away they go. They'll, they'll agree with everything and everything that everybody says. I've been to so many political meetings and listened to politicians. And they'll leave there, and they think that, uh, the people listen to them think they agree with everything they want, when they haven't done it at all. I've always, always remember one story one time by, uh, Louie Nunn, I represented some contractors out of West Memphis, Arkansas. They were building a chain of Holiday Inns in Kentucky. One of them was at Morehead at the time. And the state, the state inspectors--I don't remember whether it was electrical or building or plumbing or what--they were shaking them down, bribing them, what it amounted to, on bribes. And, uh, we had this little ----------(??) in the sky -----------(??). We flew up to Morehead. And, of course, Louie had been in politics, and he knew somebody in every town, you know. He knew people. And this guy picked us up at the airport. ----------(??) He took us down to city hall, and we met with these people. And, uh, hopefully got it straightened out. And we were going back to the airport the day he picks us up. Louie --(laughs)-- ----------(??). And, uh, I, I was, uh, I think I was sitting in the back seat of the car, and Louie was in the passenger seat, and this fellow was driving. And they were talking about things, and I was just sitting there listening, you know. And this fellow wanted certain things if Louie were elected Governor the next time. And, uh, so after this conversation took place, we got out at the airport, got in the airplane, cranked it up, took off, and was flying home. I said to Louie, "Louie"--and I'm not telling you this one, this is so typical of the way it all is--I said, "I listened to that conversation." I said, "I couldn't very well avoid hearing it since I'm sitting right there in the car with the two of you all coming back out to the airport." I said, "You really wouldn't have done what he wanted you to do, would you?" And his response to me was, "You didn't hear me tell him that I would, did you?" I said, "No, you didn't tell him you would, and you didn't tell him you wouldn't, but you left him believing you would." And I said, "That's what, that's where it is." And he did that; he left that guy believing because he didn't say no. He didn't say he would do it. Cause I listened to it very carefully, but he left that guy believing he would do it. And that's politics. And Louie was a master at it. I wasn't. FLINCHEM: You would've said no. TRAVIS: I say, "Hell no," you know, that's it. FLINCHEM: Leave no doubt. TRAVIS: That's right. Draw that sign, line in the sand and cross it and that's it. But that's the difference between a politician and somebody that's not a politician. I just couldn't ever do that. I just couldn't, I couldn't live with having to do that. (laughs) I just don't, I just don't want to have any doubt. That's where I missed my calling because the only thing that I was ever suited for in my life, I guess, was the military. That's, that's probably and I don't know that I fit there today, because to a certain level, it's politics too, you know. I found that out in many ways. but, uh, at a certain level of the military, it's all business and that, that probably would've, would've suited me better for my lifetime than anything I've ever done because you don't have to do all those things. But you get a certain level in there, and it turns out that all these generals are politicians anymore. You know, I see them all the time. You, you understand it. It's, it's, it's part of the buddy system too, you know. It gets around. (laughs) But there's nothing, there's nothing as good as just being a soldier. Uh, particularly when, when it's on the line. You not going to let them believe, Well, I thought he would do that. Are you gonna do that? Do you do that? Did you do that? You do it, that's it. FLINCHEM: No room for shades of gray. TRAVIS: There's no room for shades of gray. That's exactly right. Because that's being deceitful to me. And it always was. That's the reason I always never considered myself a politician. And, uh, I would just give you an answer. I had one client one time that, uh, he came to me, and, uh, his wife was a schoolteacher in Barren(??) County, and, uh, they had discharged her or something, and he wanted me to, to sue them. -------------(??)--------- I said, "Well, let me look into it first." and I looked into it first, and I found out she should've been fired. And I told him so. Well, I thought that, uh, you know, I've lost a friend forever. Well, a few years later, uh, when I was running for the Senate after that, his father came in here. And he said, "Well, I didn't know whether my son David would ever vote for you or not after what you told him about his wife, and that she should've been fired, that they were more than justified in what they did." but said, uh, said, "He did anyway." He said, "He talked to other people and said they just never would give him an answer." He said, "You just told him directly what it was, and that was it and said he did vote for you." So, you know, it works sometimes. And later I got that fellow divorcing that same woman--(laughs)--a few years later. (laughs) But, uh, you know, that's, that's the way it goes. You know, you don't know. Most people, most people want to be deceived. You know, they like, they like to hear the good promises. They don't want the hard truth of it. You know, like that fellow behind you there. My son gave me that a few weeks ago. You know who that is, don't you? FLINCHEM: Churchill. TRAVIS: Yeah, Winston Churchill. He's, he's one of my great heroes, Winston Churchill. I don't know what we'd done without him in the world at the time that he was around. He's probably the greatest human being of my age, in my opinion. And, uh, but, you know, he was that way. He didn't promise these things; it was blood, sweat, and tears, you know. We'll fight them on the beaches; we'll fight them in the cities, you know. Just, uh. (laughs) He just bring them on. FLINCHEM: He didn't say it would be a splendid little war. TRAVIS: Huh? TRAVIS: He didn't say it would be a splendid war. TRAVIS: No, he didn't say it would be a splendid little war then, no. Unh-uh. No, he, he didn't. I don't know how he did what he did. I don't know how. I've always had a great, uh, admiration for the British people. And, of course, I told you earlier, that's the first thing I ever wanted to do in my lifetime is fly Spitfires in the Eagle Squadron. But, uh, I, I, I just can't believe what he and the English people did and the courage they had. Gosh, it was something else. It was something else in the late forties. That, that they did(??). We've never, we've never experienced anything like that in this country. Of course, other then(??) the Civil War, you know, which was the worst thing to ever happen to us. Uh, it was horrible but that was only in the South. It was only part of the country. Uh, people died from all over, but the real, real damage was so limited in certain areas, even in the South, you know, the Virginia, West Virginia campaigns, the people, all the fights around Kentucky, and Tennessee, and Vicksburg, and places like that, and Atlanta, of course, and Sherman's march to the sea. But mostly other than that march from Louisville to the sea with Sherman, and Vicksburg, and the, the campaigns, and the Army at the Potomac, and, and Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, uh, that was very limited. But it was bloody where it was fought, you know. Those people were standing up shooting each other. You know, they were shooting each other almost eyeball-to-eyeball, and unbelievable the courage they had to have. Unbelievable they could stand there and do that. And I'm not sure very smart. I always thought there might better be, there're a better way to do this than that, you know. (both laugh) There's bound to be a better way to do this than what they were doing. But Lord, look at the people we had killed and wounded and maimed for life in the Civil War. We never had anything else compare to it. Nothing close to it. And again, it didn't really affect much of the country. You see, a country that has been devastated by war and it's different thing. I mean, I never saw a city in Korea, except Busan, which they never did take, which was a pile of garbage to begin with, you know. Busan, Korea was no, but, uh, other cities, like Seoul, Korea, it was a pile of rubble, you know. The dome was still standing on the national Capitol the last time I saw it, but everything around it was just rubble. And, uh, and Japan was still that way when I was there during the Korean War. It had not rebuilt. See, they started rebuilding during the Korean War. And they, they got their start--most people don't realize it--but at least my understanding is that they were, they were rebuilding all our equipment there. The best equipment we had in Korea were five-ton trucks, as far as vehicles that were rebuilt in Yokohama, Japan, from World War II stuff. And, uh, they, they started their electronics industry then by rebuilding our, our electronic radio equipment and instruments and things in Japan. That's where it started. That started Japan being what it is today was the Korean War. FLINCHEM: That soon after World War II? TRAVIS: Yeah, it was just, uh, you know, five years. Six, six years, really, yeah. But yeah, that, that that is what brought the revival in Japan about was the Korean War. And, uh, because when I first saw it, man, it was dark and dingy in a downtrodden place. You know, it was an occupied country. And, uh, nothing like it is today. It's amazing what they do. And they're, they're right. Uh, you know, that's one thing George Bush is right about, but I'm not sure you can, uh, get everyone to see it that way. That you've got to have freedom. And you've got, you've got to have liberty to accomplish things. You don't do it in totalitarian states. You know, even Hitler, who was a genius in his own crazy way, he accomplished a lot. The German people did, but it wasn't of, uh, because they had a total lack of liberty in those days too. But, uh, the things they did scientifically and engineering feats and military, it still boggles my mind to, to comprehend what, what the German people did in World War II. I mean, you, you have to realize there is something inherently about these people that's, uh, I don't want to call it great, but it's outstanding. It stands alone because there is just something there-- [Pause in recording.] TRAVIS: We need to learn from our past and history, and I hope I have. But I don't have any way to put any of it to any use. It's, it's virtually useless as far as my understanding and, and my philosophy and feeling about these things. I'm like a, you know, I'm like a knot on a log as far as the world's concerned, but it still concerns me, and I still worry about it. But I know there's not a thing you can do about it. Particularly when you are seventy-five years old and one foot in the grave, what are you gonna do? There's not a thing in the world you can do. I hardly ever see anybody anymore even want to vote for it. Because I see all this duplicity, and, and it does, it bothers me. And, uh, I've often said that, well, I not, I better not say that but we have one, uh, individual, had a statewide office in Kentucky, he's had it for a number of years. I'll let you surmise who that is. It only fits one person. And, uh, I've told someone I never voted for him. And, uh, the only thing that helps him that I usually vote against the other fellow's worse than he is. (laughs) And unfortunately, that's the truth for a lot of people, too. You know, these politicians get the idea that people love them and vote for, they don't. They're usually just voting for the lesser of the evils. And, uh, I, I heard, uh, Lee Nunn, Louie Nunn's brother, tell him that more than once. Cause Lee Nunn was a genius in politics. And of absolute, uh, total integrity. You know, if he told you something, you could write it down. You could put it in the bank. And I've heard him tell his brother many times that, uh, "Louie," he says, "they're not gonna vote for you because they love you; they're gonna vote because they're voting against that other fellow nine times out of ten." He said, "There won't be 10 percent of them out there that vote for you because they like you. Don't ever, don't ever kid yourself, and think you're a god, you know, because it just don't work that way." But politicians get to thinking that, they think they're gods after awhile for some reason. And they aren't. That's all the choices that people make. I just, I mentioned I read that book, recently, Three Roads to the Alamo. And I was fascinated by Davy Crockett's career in the United States Congress. And that, that is fascinating to read that, and, uh, because of what he did. And, and it's rather strange, too. Though his whole political career was strange to me, the way he got elected, and what he did. He apparently didn't do anything but he served until(??) he's fifty. He was criticized by his fellow Tennessean Andy Jackson all the time. And I gather that was only because Andy Jackson opposed him good lengths. (laughs) That's all I, that's all I've been able to figure out about. That's the same old thing, you see, because Andy was against him. Andy supported his opponent, so he was always against his own, uh, Tennessean who was president of the United States, Andy Jackson. That's politics. It's, uh, I, I see things around here all the time that, uh, little things happen. And, uh, something just happened here recently, and I thought about advising one of our local political officeholders just something he did recently, that I don't believe I'd be doing that if I was you. I'm not gonna be doing it, cause they wouldn't, they would misunderstand anyway, because the things they're doing is turning people against them. And they think they're doing a great thing right now, but they don't realize that, uh, you know, what the people are really thinking out there. They're gonna be hostile. In fact, I, I probably won't even vote for this person cause what they did. I mean, it causes me great reservations in voting for him, but, you know, and again, you got to the point you don't have any choice. And so you wind up voting for this one cause you can't vote for that other one. (laughs) And that's what it's all about. FLINCHEM: It's where you say, where I'm from, slim-pickings, slim-times. TRAVIS: It is, it is slim-pickings. It's. Uh, I remember one time I heard, uh, Senator Howard Baker from Tennessee. I was going around with him when he was speaking for Louie Nunn and when governors ran which -----------(??), whether it was ----------(??) over either, Russell Springs or Jamestown somewhere. First time I heard Senator Baker tell his story. And he was making a speech, and he was telling all those people over there, you know, how he came to, uh, be a Republican and, and, and this sort of thing. And, uh, that, uh, he was politicking down in west Tennessee in the Democrat part of Tennessee, and this one old fellow came up to him said, "Well, young man," said, "I'd like to vote for you. I like you, I like what I see, and I like what I hear." But said, "I can't do that." Said, "If I did, my grandfather would turn over in his grave cause he's an old Confederate Democrat." And, uh, but he said, "I thought about it. And, uh, I guess I'd better be more concerned about my grandchildren than my grandfather, so I'll gonna vote for you." (FLINCHEM laughs) I remember hearing Howard Baker tell that story over there. It, it made an impression on me because I watched it happen right here. I watched it happen all across this country during my lifetime, you know. They'd always turn, they change, they switch, and they go in another direction-- FLINCHEM: --issues changing between parties and ---------(??)-- TRAVIS: --oh, it's been huge, it's been huge. It's been huge, uh, just in my lifetime. Because I, I grew up as a Democrat. My mother used to manage, uh, was a campaign manager for Franklin Roosevelt's campaigns in Monroe County. And there wasn't, uh, 10 percent of the people over there Democrats, you know. When I, when I was younger, my family over there were Democrats. They were, they go back because their family was slaveholders during the Civil War. That's what it all goes back to. And, uh, and then later, they all changed, uh, uh, probably about the time I did. Uh, my, my whole family changed political parties and it all political philosophy. And just, we're, we're sort of, sort of hostile to big government more than anything else. I'm very much concerned of big government. I'm scared to death of big government. I, I see what it does in intruding in peoples' lives. I see all these programs they create. They don't work. They create more problems than they solve. And it's just frightening, and nobody's doing anything about it because they don't, they don't, don't dare oppose them. They think all, all these new good things go. We're destroying families in this state with the laws we've got now. It's -----------(??). This foster child care program is a disaster, and we've got all this, all these social workers that I feel sorry for them, because they couldn't do the job if they wanted to with the conditions they've got and the pay they've got. And they've, they've asked to do the impossible, and they can't do it, and, and we're just, uh, forever expanding on the problem, and, uh, it's of great concern. We're destroying families. And governments had, had a lot to do with it. You know, you'll find, it's just, it's like the immigration problem we have now. Uh, you don't find anyone to work anymore that's, that's, uh, uh, Caucasian American or even African American, because they're all on social security, disability, or S.S.I., or something. They don't have to. But we've, we've have developed generations of people now who don't want to do anything except draw a check. And it's really frightening. I was told a story a few years ago, which sort of sums all this up. This schoolteacher taught art in school. She had this one kid that had some, she thought exceptional talent. And she was talking with him one day, and says, you know, "What are you gonna do when you grow up?" Said, uh, uh, "I'd like to know what your plans are," and she kinda wanted him to be an artist. And, uh, he finally responded, and said, "Oh, I'm gonna draw when I, I grow up." And, uh, she says, "Oh, that's great. Says, "Are you gonna, you know, be a commercial artist, or draw cartoons or whatever, you know?" He says, "No," says, "I'm just gonna draw like Mommy and Daddy does." FLINCHEM: Draw a check. TRAVIS: It's a tremendous problem. It's a tremendous problem. It's just destroying us. And it, and I have a, well, I have people every day tell me that, uh, they see this happening to their own family, you know. And they don't know what to do about it. I have, I have adults come in. They complain about their, their--I mean these are young adults. They're concerned about their parents that they just want to sit down and do nothing except draw a check anymore. And they don't like it. But that's the way it is. I have people come in here all the time wanting me to represent them in some case. And, and when I inquire of them as what their occupation is, "Oh, I'm not working. I'm not doing anything. I'm drawing, uh, social security disability." And I said, "Well, what's wrong with you?" "My nerves." You can't believe how many of them have nerve problems and draw social security disability. And, uh, most of those are alcoholics and drug addicts, and they're drawing social security disability. It's frightening. The government is paying, is subsidizing their dependency. So, yeah, sometimes I wish I were in some place to do something about these things. But I, I couldn't do it when I was there, and I couldn't do it if I went back, and so I'm just, just have to write it off. It's something I can't have any effect on. Can't have anything to do with. FLINCHEM: We discussed several big issues and problems facing Kentucky today. What advice do you have for Kentuckians in the future? Is there anything that can and should be done? TRAVIS: Well, I've, uh, I have always felt that that Kentucky is a backwards state. And I've always been disappointed when I see our governors and leaders running around talking about how proud they are of Kentucky. And I can understand the reason they do that, but I'd rather see them do something to elevate it more. (laughs) And to lift it up more other than just run around getting everyone who's doing nothing thinking they're doing fine. And tell them how wonderful everything is, because everything isn't wonderful. And, uh, but, you know, it's like all the rest of this country. This country as a whole has done so well, and, you know, the rising tide raises all boats. So, uh, we have risen somewhat with it but we've had the opportunity to do more than we have in Kentucky because of our geographical location. We're almost in the center of the nation. Uh, we have, we've had all kinds of natural resources in this, in this state. Uh, we have everything it takes to do anything we want to in Kentucky. And we've had, we've had a government, uh, a state government of Kentucky that's been dominated by the wrong people. And, uh, they're not interested in doing those things. Uh, if there is one thing that I, that I admire Governor Fletcher for this, although I know it's like a, it's, uh, it kamikaze mission. But he supported the state right-to-work law. And, uh, uh, I always, I filed half a dozen right-to-work laws when I was the state senator. Because I came, became convinced years ago that the only way Kentucky is going to improve is going to be based on economics. And it's gonna be based on getting good jobs, good paying jobs for people in Kentucky, so they can make a decent living. And that will create all these other businesses, you know, there are about five jobs(??) created every, industrial jobs, and that would really raise this state to another level. And, uh, of course, I could never get anywhere with them, and he won't either. So we, we've let basically the coal unions, the United Mine Workers, and some of the other unions, and the worst of all, right now, is the K.E.A. That's the worst union in the state of Kentucky for those influences. But, uh, if we had, if we had a right-to-work law, we would have such industrial development, or would've had, in this state. It would've been unbelievable. Because most of the industries, a majority of them looking at Kentucky don't even consider it because it's not a right-to- work state. And, uh, there are people who will dispute this, but, uh, back when I had access to people in, uh, in doing that sort of thing, they would admit that to you and would tell you that. And I, and I, as a practicing lawyer, I did labor relations work and represented and worked with some industries. Now, I knew what their feelings were about it. I, I've gotten a lot of unions to be decertified for factories to keep them here, and I've had some that, uh, where they would vote in a union, and they would leave within six months too. I know what, I know the effect of it. So all we need is the right-to-work law because then we would get them in here. We wouldn't had to spend the, uh, four-hundred million dollars, what it was, on Toyota had we had a right-to-work law. They'd been here anyway. They would've been here anyway. Because we had everything else they needed. And, and, uh, we have, we have all the others, but now we look at things going in Indiana. Indiana is even a right-to-work state. And all the southern states, Tennessee, all of them south of us are too. North Carolina is, they're all going to those places, and they don't understand that. And I used to discuss it with, uh, Ron Cyrus, who was, uh, a representative in the House with the executive secretary of the Kentucky AFL-CIO. I remember he and I having a discussion out in Seattle, Washington, one time about it. And I said, "Ron," I said, "We just differ on, on basic principles on these things." And I said, "My view is, 'Let us get the jobs in here and then you try to organize them.'" But I said, "If you don't have jobs, you've got nobody to organize." And they don't seem to, and they know that. But you see, basically the unions in this age, since government has supplanted this, in all the things they do, everything's been adopted in legislation that the unions used to get done with their members. Most of what the union is interested in now is their leadership. Is getting four or five hundred people in this plant and getting union dues off of them every month. They want to tax them. And you cannot believe the way some of these, uh, this bureaucracy and the labor union operation, where they live. Let me tell you, they live high on the hog, like Jimmy Hoffa. I mean, they live high on the hog. I once had an Internal Revenue agent tell me about, uh, the head of Butcher Workers Union, I believe it was, in Louisville, one of those meat cutters, and, uh, they got them, the IRS got them, and how many pairs of Italian shoes and Italian suits and everything these people own, unbelievable. But that's what it's all about. It's getting a union. Getting, getting the dues. So that's why they oppose right-to-work. They don't want to just get in there to represent the people as a union through collective bargaining, but they want to make them all pay part of their wages in to their coffers. And that's what it's all about. And now the other side of the reason the companies want, uh, right-to-work is that they know the unions won't try to organize them if it's a right- to-work state because they can't force the employees to pay them their dues. That's what it's all about, and it's as simple, as simple as that it can be, and if we have the right-to-work law in this state, it would be, the last, uh, twenty or thirty years would've been phenomenon in Kentucky. We would've been, we would've been so full of growth and prosperity and those things, it would've been unbelievable. And I know some people the, uh, Pritchard Committee used to take issue with me because I told them the first thing we need was jobs. And, uh, I said, "Then we'll cure the education problems, because once we have jobs, we have money. And, uh, we can cure the education problem, but we can't do it the other way around. You know, if we're, if we're, if we're poverty-stricken, we can't do it. We've got to have people working." I said, "Well, once they get working, the people working the plants want their children to do better. They want them to go to college. They want them to get, take another step up the ladder." "But," I said, "as long as we got them drawing welfare, uh, they don't have those goals and ambitions. But you've got to get them involved in the free enterprise system and then they'll want to move up the ladder." FLINCHEM: Give an incentive-- TRAVIS:--you will-- FLINCHEM: --something to work for-- TRAVIS: --you move their children up the ladder. They'll really move up because when they get something they appreciate it, they want their children to do better. They really do. But I don't know how we get those things done because we, uh, we let that little small number of people--used to be small--K.E.A. is the worse one right now. They're the world's worst about doing that, because they're, they're the biggest union in this state and the most powerful one. They're the reason I didn't go back to the State Senate, frankly because I didn't campaign. I didn't try to raise any money. I didn't do anything. And, uh, they have, I hate to give them the credit, uh, but they beat me. Because I could see in the, in the counties where I, I, again, I didn't campaign, but I, I could see where my vote was reduced, and I knew it because I knew it through my people there that it was the teachers that were doing it. That were being told what to do by the K.E.A. You know, so what, I didn't care. I don't begrudge them anything. They didn't, they didn't do me any harm by removing me. (laughs) Cause I, I really never enjoyed being there, except every once in a while, there'd be a good fight. I'd enjoy it. (FLINCHEM laughs) There weren't enough of those to make it enjoyable. FLINCHEM: It got dull. TRAVIS: Yeah, it was too, it was dull and boring most of the time. It really was. It really was a very dull and boring thing most of the time. Just to me, it was a lot of hard; it was a lot of reading and a lot of analyzing bills, uh, that was almost useless. But that was the, my guideline, and I tried to follow it. But, uh, you know, it, uh, I, I never have missed it. I never enjoyed being in Frankfort. Even when Louie Nunn was governor, he would call me up and want to know why I wouldn't come up there and see him. And I did later serve on the Public Service Commission for him. And, uh, but, uh, I just didn't want any part of it. I don't know why. But I, I thought Louie did a good job as governor. And, of course, then he put me on the Public Service Commission, and it was the first time in history that, uh, the Public Service Commission ever denied a utility company a rate increase. And the only time, I think. And I didn't realize it was so historical until later I had a fellow, a lobbyist in Frankfort says, "You didn't know what you were doing." Says, "You made history and didn't even know it." I said, "Well, anyway they didn't deserve it." You know, they were ripping off the people. This, these utilities, South Central Bell Telephone Company. And they came in for a rate increase, and there were three commissioners. And I convinced one of the others to go along with me and deny the whole thing. I said, "They should be refunding money to these people the way they've overcharged them in the past." And, uh, we denied it, and it wound up in the courts, and we still won. The only time it's ever happened in Kentucky. But, you know, that's the way it was. Needless to say, the utilities didn't want to hire me as the attorney after that either. (laughs) And the, the people don't, you know. They don't care. But I, I, I, there are a lot of things, a lot of enjoyment in all those things. There's a lot of satisfaction in those things -----------(??). Just to get something done, you know. There're not, just there's so few occasions, it's almost like -----------(??), they're very difficult to find sometimes, when you look at those things. (laughs) FLINCHEM: Frustrating when they aren't there, but when you find opportunities rewarding. TRAVIS: Well, I, I, I would never cl-, uh, classify really as frustrating because you, you have to have certain expectations to make something frustrating. And I never really had those expectations. I just had the, had the expectation, I ought just do my darndest, you know. And, uh, I didn't expect the, to pick the fruits. Occasionally I, I might luck into one, you know. (laughs) That was the kind of way it was. And, uh, no, I, I don't regret my experience. But, uh, one of the few regrets I've ever had in my life is ever been involved in politics. Because I've accomplished nothing by it. And I think it's such a petty, demeaning, uh, profession, or art, or whatever you want to call it. It's just, uh, it's just something that, uh, I was never cut out to do or cut out to be. Just, uh, I, I didn't fit the mold. And I realize that. My mother told me that when I was younger. I was told that, uh, by Louie Nunn one time. I was in an, an another city in Kentucky having lunch with some people. I'd been there on some oil and gas business. And this lady was sitting there, and she said something, and I, I said spoke, something to her, and it got back to Louie, and he says, says, "Damn you, Joe, you're too honest." Said, "You're too frank." I said, "Well, Louie, she asked the question and I gave her an answer." (laughs) I said, "That's the only way I know to do things." I said, "If I don't fit, you know, that's it." (laughs) FLINCHEM: It wasn't a politician's way of doing things. TRAVIS: Well, he was a master politician. He really was. He was, he was, and he, he was honest too. Nobody's perfectly honest, you know. We all got our, you know, we, don't any of us want to claim to be perfectly honest because we all got a little bit of deceit--(laughs)-- chicanery in us when it comes to certain things. (laughs) It's probably a matter of degree. It's like the volume. You turn up or down the volume, you know, where you are on that level. But, uh, some of them, it's just full blast all the time. But you, you have to try to control it. (laughs) And it's fun, you know, life's fun. And all the things you do cause I've had so many things I wanted to do, and so many things I've done. And, uh, but I've done, oh, I probably haven't done everything I did, but, uh, I don't know what more I could've done and things I wanted to do. You know, I've ridden motorcycles and flown airplanes. I've fired cannons. And I've been, you know, been in a war. And, uh, and, uh, done, done everything like that, and had a great family. So, you know, what do you do? To me, it's all, uh, it's all very satisfying. Politics, uh, I never took it that seriously. I think I'm serious in my philosophy, but I never took it that seriously in being a, a politician and being in a public position(??). FLINCHEM: And making a career of it. TRAVIS: Yeah, oh, I never considered it. Never considered it. Wouldn't, wouldn't want to do it. Unh-uh. I couldn't do it. I mean, it would be impossible for me to be a successful politician. And I know that. And I've known that from day one. So, I guess that's the reason I never really wanted to be. FLINCHEM: You're okay with it. TRAVIS: Yeah, I'm perfectly okay with it. I'm perfectly okay. It doesn't bother me. I just recently had a candidate here lost an election. I was talking to one of my friends the other day, said this particular candidate was calling up her friends now and very upset with them and chewing them out because they didn't do something. I said, "Well, she shouldn't take it so seriously. You know, tomorrow is another day, like Scarlett O'Hara said when Rhett walked away, you know, tomorrow is another day. Don't worry about it. There'll be another day. It doesn't make that much difference." You know, it didn't. I've never been, uh, I've never been upset. I've been able to take a beating, and walk away from it, and never, and never feel, uh, discouraged because that's just the way things are. I see people get so upset cause they lose an election or something. I can't believe it. Uh, it's not that big a deal. You know, it's the people's business. The people ultimately win or lose, not the candidates. FLINCHEM: Um-hm. TRAVIS: And that's, that's kinda the way I have always looked at it. I, I've never cared. And, uh, had, uh, and I never did anything to, I never did what I should've done to, you know, to be reelected in public office, and I knew at the time, but I'm not willing to do it. I'm just not willing to do certain things. Because I've, I've seen people that have and I see the price they pay too. And it's a dear price. Maybe that's it; I don't want to pay that price. Didn't want to pay, a, a professional politician pays a dear price. He literally sells his soul to the devil. (laughs) I don't think there's any doubt about it. (laughs) Because I watched it happen to them. FLINCHEM: Do you have any other pieces of advice for Kentucky? Or were there some things that-- TRAVIS: --well, I, I-- FLINCHEM: --I failed to bring up that you'd like to discuss? TRAVIS: --well, no, I just, I just like to see Kentucky do much better than it is. I, I like to see, you know, my, my home area do much better than it is. And, uh, and it's done, we've done pretty well here in Glasgow, in this area. And, uh, most people don't recognize it, but we've done pretty well here in Glasgow primarily because of one person, in politics, and that's Louie Nunn. But, but he did that before he was even elected governor because he was so influential in getting industry located here. And, uh, when he was governor, he put two of the biggest plants here, uh, uh, the Eaton Company, which is now Dana Corporation and R.R. Donnelley and Sons, which without R.R. Donnelley and Sons, Glasgow would be nothing today. It's been the, it's been the backbone of the community, and Louie personally put it here as governor. Got them to locate here. And, uh, that's what has made Glasgow. And, uh, people around here probably wouldn't give him credit for it to this day really, uh, because, you know-- FLINCHEM: --he's a Republican. (laughs) TRAVIS: He's a Republican, yeah. He's a Republican. But, but again, this is almost a Republican county now. FLINCHEM: Okay. TRAVIS: This county, this county, uh, has gone Republican in almost every Presidential election since I've been back here. And I came back here in '60 when I got out of the Army the second time. I was a judge advocate for the 101st Airborne originally(??) at Fort Campbell when I got out. And, uh, it voted for, uh, this county probably voted for Kennedy. And it voted for Jimmy Carter cause he's a Baptist, a southern Baptist. And, uh, it seemed like that it, it might not have voted for Goldwater, I'm not sure now. But, uh, it voted for Nixon every time he ran. But went for Reagan. And, you know, it would've for Eisenhower, as I recall. I wasn't here in those days. Uh, I, I was in the service or in law school. But, uh, no, Barren County is no longer a Democrat county. Uh, I, I saw this happening when I was Second District chairman years ago. I kept trying to persuade people that the Second District was going to become a Republican district. And, uh, because of the philosophy of people. And they just couldn't, you know, we had Bill Natcher as a congressman, and Natcher was a great guy. I liked the guy personally. And, uh, he was there as long as he wanted to be, a very good guy(??), you know(??), and a Democrat congressman, Natcher, Bill Natcher was a good guy. And he did what he had to do, and he was just an interesting person to know. And, uh, but I told them the time will come. Well, when it came up, Natcher died. (laughs) And we had a, had a fluke running for congress, now he's been a United States congressman for six or eight years. Name's Ron Lewis. Just by pure accident, pure accidental timing because, uh, he was nominated with the party, and, uh, to run. And he sat right there where you are, and wanted me to, they were having a meeting, and, uh, I think in Litchfield, the Second District meeting. I was county chairman here at the time. And the county chairman was the one that voted to name the candidate. And, uh, we had another fellow here was seeking the office who shouldn't had it. Just a kid. But his father was a big contributor of the public. And, uh, and, uh, so I, I told Lewis to come in here. I said, "Ron," I said, uh, "You know, I'll support you because this other fellow is not who we need as, as a candidate. He's not mature enough," and, of course, I didn't, I wasn't that high on Ron Lewis either because he didn't show me much either to be there, you know. But it's like ----------(??) always says, the lesser of the evils. And, uh, but I didn't go to the meetings. I told him, "Now if you need my vote, I'll come down there and vote." But I said, "If you don't, uh, let me know, if you got your count right because I don't want just antagonize all these people here and make that trip down there for nothing." So he said, "No, I've got it," he said, "I've got it won," and he was nominated, and he was elected. And, uh, he was elected, and one of his principle, uh, principles was he only served two or three terms, and then he wouldn't run again. So he's already violated that. That bothers me, when people do that. But he's, uh, but he's up for reelection this year and will probably be reelected. I don't, I don't see any reason he won't be. But I have trouble voting for him because, uh, forbid himself not to do that. And with me, your word's your bond. If I tell you, I'll do something; I'll die before I'll not do it or do it. But, you know, but they get in there. I, because here, here's a guy, Ron Lewis is a nice guy, he really is. He's, he's a nice, decent guy, but, he's not no, you know, I don't know of anything he's done that merits anything as congressman, except he's there, you know. -----------(??) But he votes for the Republican majority, and that's about the only thing I could say for him as far as I'm concerned. But, uh, they get, they get on that government, uh, uh, milk train, and they want to ride it, and, uh, cause, you know, he'd never seen anything like the money he's seeing now, you know. He can't believe what he's got, you know. It's like I had a friend here who was elected district judge a few years ago. And he came in here after the election, and, uh, he never, you know, I don't guess he'd ever made very much money practicing law. Why, I know he didn't because he came in to me, and he says, "You can't believe what they pay me a month." He got ten thousand dollars a month. And he couldn't believe it. He's still there, and he's doing a good job. And, uh, but, uh, and I don't know, it's just, I don't know how he, uh, would've won reelection had he had an opponent. He'd probably had trouble, but they all do. You can't be a family court judge without making a lot of enemies, you know. Other judges don't do that so much, but a family court judge, that's a terrible place to be. (laughs) That is terrible. He made everybody mad. There're no winners when you go into divorce court. (laughs) There's just no winners. So, but he does a good job. But he, I know how impressed he was with that salary. I'll never forget him sitting here saying, "Gosh, they're paying me ten thousand dollars." But you don't make that practicing law in the country, you know. I, I've been practicing law for fifty years, and I made one hundred thousand dollars one year. I always had to make my living trading on real estate or something on the side. You know, doing other things. You couldn't make it practicing law. There's no way to do it, but you can do it, if you do other things. Have a lot of energy. You get out and do something else. (laughs) I mean, made more than that several times out of real estate. (laughs) Interesting life, but I don't think there's much better than just being a country lawyer when you get down to it. It's not, it's not a lucrative thing. There's not a lot of money in it. But, uh, you deal with people, and it just, and you're respected by some part of them, part of them you're hated by. It's like, you know, there's always two sides to it, because I noted it with the few elections I was in that, uh, people would contribute(??) to me, people I'd sued at some time or another, and that's why, they're still not(??) over that, you know. It's very interesting. But, uh, the biggest contributors, as a matter of fact, were, were those people you had sued over. Maybe a optometrist or a ophthalmologist over a malpractice suit one time I did. And, uh, uh, they kick in big against you when the time comes. (laughs) But it's still, I think being a country lawyer, if you don't mind the shortage of money all the time, it's just a great life. It's almost like being on the frontier again in, in certain ways. You have that freedom, you know. There's a certain freedom to it. I wouldn't, couldn't live in the city and be a city lawyer like my son is ------------(??). I just, I just rather see the people walk in here every day. And, uh, want something done or want to help, want to help them in some way. And it, it is very rewarding. It is very rewarding to just help people sometimes. And occasionally get to do that. Listen to that grandchild out there. FLINCHEM: That must be rewarding. TRAVIS: Yeah, it is, it really is. I love them. Nothing like them. Nothing like them. Hm. Anything else that I can discuss with you or that you'd like to have me discuss with you? FLINCHEM: I'm sure there's more we could discuss. TRAVIS: I don't know what it would be. FLINCHEM: I believe you've given a great interview. TRAVIS: Well, I don't know about that. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. FLINCHEM: It's my pleasure. Thank you very much. TRAVIS: Because I like to talk about what I love. (both laugh) FLINCHEM: I've enjoyed listening. Thank you. TRAVIS: Well, good to see you. [End of interview.] Travis (Senate, 1981-1988; 9th district; Republican) discusses his family, growing up during World War II, the effect of mass communications technologies on society, his friendship with Louie B. Nunn, his decision to switch from the Democratic to the Republican party, the conservatism of Western Kentucky Democrats, how he got involved in politics, his legislative strategies, his resistance to lobbyists, the influence of special interest groups on the legislative process, his insistence on reading every bill he voted for, the legislative process, his work on the Whistle Blower Bill, his opinion of ethanol as a replacement for gasoline, his concern about health insurance costs, and his opposition to retirement plans for legislators. He recounts going to Japan during the Korean War. He suggests reasons for the migration of many Southern Democrats to the Republican Party, describes his objections to social security and disability insurance, his support of "right to work" laws, and his belief in the primacy of fostering economic growth as a legislative priority. Travis often returns to the theme of the lack of honesty and integrity in politics. insert here

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