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1984-04-06 Interview with Julian Burke, April 6, 1984 Reed001:1984OH013Reed19 01:19:35 Stanley F. Reed Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Reed, Stanley Forman, 1884-1980 Julian Burke; interviewee Terry L. 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How did that all come about? BURKE: Well, that's kind of an interesting story actually. [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] I was a . . . a law student at Georgetown University. I began my law school career in 1952. I had recently finished college, and I had also recently married, and I came to Washington to go to law school from Chicago, where I was born and raised, and where I went to undergraduate school. The reason I didn't go to law school at Northwestern, where I had gone to undergraduate school, is because my new wife refused to live in Chicago. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] She didn't want to be near her new in-laws, I believe. And so, one night, as we were planning our marriage, we had a . . . an atlas in front of us, and we chose to . . . to have me go to law school in Washington, where neither one of us had ever been in our lives. BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. BURKE: And so soon after we were married and finished a brief honeymoon, we got in a car and drove to Washington and set up our first household there. And I began night law school at Georgetown soon thereafter. Can we pause here while we have our coffee? BIRDWHISTELL: Surely. [chuckle--Burke] [Interruption in taping] BURKE: So I . . . I continued my law school career in . . . in evening session and, indeed, the week before I began my curriculum, I took a job with a law firm in Washington, originally as a file clerk. And I stayed at that law firm all during the years that I was in law school, for three and half years. And it was as a result of working at that law firm that I ultimately, soon after graduating law school, was appointed to be the law clerk to the then, now deceased, E. [Elijah] Barrett Prettyman, a judge of the Circuit Court of Appeals for the D.C. [District of Columbia] circuit, and I spent a year with Judge Prettyman. And during the year that I was with Judge Prettyman, his son, Barrett Prettyman Jr., was a law clerk at the Supreme Court of the United States while I was clerking for his father. And I came to know Barrett Jr. and certainly came to know Judge Prettyman very well. And Barrett spent a great deal of time with his father and with me over that year that I was with Judge Prettyman, and he interested me in trying to become a Supreme Court law clerk after leaving his father. And as the year wore on, Judge Prettyman called Stanley Reed and said to Stanley Reed that he would like Stanley to consider his present law clerk, to wit myself, to be a law clerk to . . . to the justice for the next term. I was in the room, indeed, when . . . when Judge Prettyman called Stanley Reed, and it was a friendly, easy conversation between two people who obviously knew each other quite well. And that conversation ended with the justice apparently telling Judge Prettyman that he would consider that, and he appreciated the call, and they exchanged greetings to their wi- . . . about their wives and so forth. Several days later, in fact maybe just two days later, I got a call at Judge Prettyman's chambers from Mr. Justice Reed, whom I had never met, and he introduced himself to me and he said that after having talked to Judge Prettyman, he found it totally unnecessary to interview me or to see me. That he would like me to become his law clerk for the coming term, which was the `55 term. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: He mumbled [chuckle] something about what the compensation was . . . what the salary was. He mumbled something about the compensation. I . . . I truly cannot remember what it was, but he s- . . . BIRDWHISTELL: It's hard to remember those kind of things. [chuckle] BURKE: Yes, it . . . it is. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: [Inaudible]. BURKE: But he . . . he said . . . he said, "I do not understand it, why the government has us paying our law clerks this amount of money. It seems like an outrageous amount of money. And if . . . if I had the choice, I would . . . I would pay you very little money, as I would pay any law clerk of mine very little money. But . . . but that's the deal, and I guess I'm happy to have you have that money, but I'm more happy to . . . if you would accept this position." BIRDWHISTELL: Well, that's interesting, he would . . . he would bring up the money, . . . BURKE: Yeah. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . just . . . BURKE: Uh-huh. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . like that. BURKE: It is. BIRDWHISTELL: I haven't heard that before. [chuckle--Burke] That's so . . . BURKE: I think he said it with some . . . some level of humor and joke. I . . . I've thought about that and told that story a number of times . . . many, many times over the years, and I've come to . . . to think of it as, he didn't quite know what to say to me in any event. He di- . . . he couldn't picture me. He didn't really know me. He . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. And . . . and it seems somewhat unusual that he didn't have a personal interview, because that was more his style, it seems . . . BURKE: Oh, absolutely. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . to me. So he . . . he must have really had great faith in . . . in the judge who recommended you and maybe had heard some good things about you. BURKE: Well, [chuckle--Birdwhistell] Judge Prettyman, in those days, was . . . in fact, at . . . during his entire tenure at the court, was a . . . was a very, very prestigious . . . had a very prestigious re- . . . reputation in the District. Certainly anyone in the judiciary knew his standards. He was . . . he was an outstanding . . . he had a . . . a man of outstanding reputation as a . . . as an appellate judge. His writings were beautiful, and everybody admired him, including the . . . all the members of the Court certainly knew him very well. And he was . . . he was a man who was around town a lot. Judge Prettyman was . . . was a . . . a graduate of the University of Kentuc- . . . I . . . I mean the University of Virginia [chuckle] and practiced in the District and was in government affairs for many, many years. So . . . so he really belonged to the same circle that Stanley Reed belonged to. BIRDWHISTELL: Were they about the same age? I'd . . . I [inaudible] . . . BURKE: Prettyman was . . . yeah, maybe a handful . . . a couple of years younger, perhaps. They belonged to the same golf . . . BIRDWHISTELL: I see. BURKE: . . . country club. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I just wondered because Reed, of course, had gone to Virginia for a while before going on to Columbia. BURKE: Yes. I don't . . . I don't connect that, however. They both belonged to the Burning Tree Country Club. I don't know . . . BIRDWHISTELL: So they certainly had a social . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . social relationship. So when did you first get an opportunity to . . . to meet Justice Reed? BURKE: Well, so I didn't meet Justice Reed th- . . . until . . . until probably on into August of 1955. And this conversation probably took place, I'd say, just roughly in March probably, somewhere around there, very early springtime. He simply . . . my recollection is that he told to make the arrangements with . . . with his secretary. That he would like me to come as soon as my duties with Barrett Prettyman were over. That he would not be there when I ca- . . . when I arrived. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] That he would leave a lot of work to be done. He told me . . . not during this conversation, but I subsequently learned from his secretary that his . . . his other clerk, whom he had hired before he hired me on the phone, would be Rod Hills from . . . from Stanford. And Rod and I arrived at the Court somewhere around the same period of time, and we just began working on the cert [certiorari] petitions [chuckle--Birdwhistell] as . . . as all of the new clerks do, trying to feel our way to discover what . . . what all of that was a- . . . about. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I would think that would be a lot of pressure, to come into a situation like that and know the great expectations and still not having met the man or gotten . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . to sort of feel him out about . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . his style and . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . what he expected. That's a . . . kind of a . . . e- . . . put you on edge a [chuckling] little bit. BURKE: Oh, yeah. Those were . . . that was an exciting . . . an exciting, nervous summer. BIRDWHISTELL: Did you try to familiarize yourself with his background, his career, as best you could, looking at his . . . BURKE: Well, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . record? BURKE: . . . I . . . I did very little of that, if for no other reason because I was just buried with work. I mean, I was so . . . was . . . I was so needful to get on top of the work, to . . . you know, here I was in the Supreme Court. I had been a night law school student. I had . . . I hadn't believed how I ever got to be a clerk to Barrett Prettyman, and then suddenly, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: The whole world opens [chuckling] up. BURKE: Yeah. And . . . and . . . and I find myself at the Court with . . . with all of these colleagues who were from a great deal more prestigious law schools and who had prepared themselves for all of this over a long, long period of time . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: . . . and knew all of the former clerks for [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] . . . of every justice in the . . . in the . . . in the history of the Court. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. You . . . you looked at them and felt they'd been born to be law clerks. [chuckle] BURKE: That's right. Tha- . . . that's correct. That is correct. I . . . I felt a little bit behind the times, but I was certainly proud. I was certainly proud of all of that. But I needed to get on top of that work. [chuckle]. BIRDWHISTELL: That's . . . that's an interesting . . . that's an interesting beginning. Well, what were some of your initial impressions of Justice Reed when you finally did meet him personally? Or at . . . some of your initial impressions from the . . . the assignments he left you when you first came on or from what, perhaps, the . . . you were able to gather. BURKE: Well, I think probably my initial impressions of him were formed before I ever even met him. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: Certainly I had an impression of him from Barrett Prettyman. I had an impression fro- . . . about him simply as a result of my work at the D.C. Circuit [Court of Appeals]. I . . . I don't intend to . . . to concentrate unnecessarily on . . . on Barrett Prettyman, but one of the styles of that year's worth of work with Barrett Prettyman was very, very, very highly concentrated on what . . . what is this world of . . . of judicial process that we live in. I . . . for example, it was a habit in his chambers for himself and his clerk and his secretary, who had been with him ever since he was on the court, to spend the first hour in the morning when he would arrive . . . we would spend the first hour drinking coffee and reading newspapers together, aloud. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] We would have the Washington Post and the New York Times, and sometimes the Wall Street Journal, sometimes the . . . the Christian Science Monitor or some other newspaper that the justice . . . that the judge would find that he would want to get us involved with. And we would talk about the events of the day, particularly focused on the events of . . . of the . . . of the legal world and the political world. You know, who were . . . who was going to replace [Robert] Jackson when Jackson unexpectedly left the [Supreme] Court. By the way, Jackson was . . . was the justice for whom Barrett Prettyman, Jr. was clerking, and he died during that term. And we had a lot of conversation about the makeup of the . . . of the Supreme Court, probably primarily focused on the fact that they were . . . that they had a vacancy on the Court. And we'd get a lot of information and gossip and chit-chat about the Court from Barrett Jr., who joined us a great deal. He was very close to his father. So I had a . . . I had a fairly clear, although perhaps not accurate, impression of Justice Reed before I . . . before I went there, and before I ever saw him. I had an impression that he was a very steady, stalwart, strong personality. That he was far and away the . . . the most polite figure on the Court. That everybody cared about him a lot. That he had a wide, wide experience for the . . . for his job. By this time, however . . . I mean, he had a wide, wide experience for the job when he came to the job. By this time, he'd been there many years. He must have been there by . . . seventeen or eighteen years by this time. That he had not become one of the luminaries . . . the historical luminaries of the Court, by reason of personality, primarily. That he was more interested in . . . in doing his work and forming views in his heart and in . . . and in his mind than to . . . than to be particularly focused on flowery phraseology and s- . . . and interesting written work. He was somewhat of a recluse. He was thought of as being somewhat of a recluse, and he showed up publicly seldom. He worked very hard. I . . . I had all these views about him before I ever met him, and of course most of that is . . . that . . . that is true. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Well, yeah, the second part of this question is, you know, how did those initial impressions . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . change after you got to know him personally, which is always kind of an interesting thing to see. BURKE: Well, I . . . I think the thing that most changed about my view . . . about my preconceived view of him is that . . . was that he was really much more approachable and human and humorous, indeed, than . . . than his reputation would have suggested. I . . . I had . . . I had the sense that he was . . . he was . . . he had a form- . . . formalism of politeness about him, that he was old-style Southern polite and unapproachable. He is cer- . . . he certainly was old-style polite, but certainly also was approachable [chuckle--Birdwhistell] and very, very easy and funny, loved to joke, and wasn't . . . welcomed warmly conversations with . . . with people that he cared about and . . . and people that he had . . . that he had t- . . . had business with. Unlike some of his colleagues, I might say. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: I think . . . you know, you mentioned the word polite. That just comes up over and over again with Stanley Reed, it seems to me, . . . BURKE: Oh, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . and the . . . the properness of his . . . BURKE: . . . impeccably . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . dealings with people. BURKE: . . . proper. Yes, impeccably proper. Wonderful. You don't see people like that anymore. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also interesting, too, that the people that get to know him like you did, you know, see this other side of his personality, the warmth and the . . . BURKE: Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . and the . . . and the joking and . . . and . . . and whatnot, but . . . BURKE: Loved to joke about himself, too, which . . . which tells you something. Really loved to joke about himself. BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. BURKE: Never took himself too seriously. He took his work very, very seriously, but he didn't take himself . . . he had a healthy understanding of who he was. That he was, after all, human, and . . . he was not . . . he did understand that he was not a scholar. He did understand that he was . . . that . . . that what he could bring to the Court was this wide, wide experience that he had had, that so many of the other justices did not have. That's . . . that's not to put any of . . . any of the others down, either, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: It's just a . . . BURKE: . . . but he knew . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . [inaudible] . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . [inaudible]. Yeah. I found it interesting, Judge Prettyman getting you together every morning and . . . and looking at the big picture, so to . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . speak, instead of walking in the first thing and looking at briefs and . . . and . . . and opinions, but trying to put it all in a . . . in a sense of a perspective of the larger . . . larger world. Did you find that to be the case with Justice Reed, or . . . or would you see him looking at things much more narrowly in terms of, "This isn't a . . . this is a qu- . . . a legal question that doesn't relate to whatever the New York Times editorial says," in a sense? Would . . . BURKE: Tha- . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . that be fair? BURKE: . . . it . . . it is fair. It is fair. [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] A totally different style. Totally different perspective of . . . of what the . . . of . . . of what his job entailed, I guess. And it's . . . it's not clear to me which is the right style or which is the right focus. Stanley Reed . . . the work of the Supreme Court was much more difficult for Stanley Reed than the work of . . . of Prettyman's court was to him. And that's not to say that the result of either one was better than the other by reason of that fact. Stanley Reed worked very hard, extremely hard. For a man of his age to . . . to put in the time and effort and hours that he would put in on his work was just outstanding. Especially comparatively [chuckle--Birdwhistell] to others who were there at the time. Probably a good analogy, instead of using . . . instead of using Barrett Prettyman, one might use William O. Douglas, who was there at the . . . who was at the Supreme Court at the time. Douglas . . . the . . . the work was very easy for Douglas in . . . in a lot of ways. Douglas is a much quicker decider. He . . . he has a . . . he has a more immediate view, and he writes so much more naturally, and as a consequence, he . . . he spent only fractional amounts of time in relation to the time that Stanley Reed would spend on his work. I think probably too little, but . . . but nevertheless, there is the . . . that . . . that style difference is . . . Stanley Reed was a . . . was the one extreme, and William O. Douglas was the other extreme in that connection. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Hmm. Of course, as you've already pointed out, by . . . by this time, Justice Reed had been on the Court for quite some time. He'd been in Washington since the early `30s, in the [Herbert] Hoover administration. BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: Did he talk much about Kentucky and about his native state, any references to that? During a . . . you know, when you all would sort of sit around and . . . and chat about those types of things. BURKE: Yes. Yes, in the sense that he was . . . he was proud to be a Kentuckian. He wanted everybody to know that. He particularly talked and referred to Maysville all the time. That he . . . he was proud to refer to himself as a country lawyer from Maysville. He went to Kentucky every year, and you . . . and you certainly knew that. He kept a home, I believe, in Kentucky all of those years . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Had a farm . . . BURKE: . . . and never had a home in Washington, D.C., although he lived there from the early `30s . . . BIRDWHISTELL: So it . . . it's an interesting . . . BURKE: . . . until he died. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . thing. Yeah. BURKE: He lived in . . . as you probably know, he lived in . . . in . . . in the Mayflower . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Mayflower, uh-huh. BURKE: . . . the Mayflower Hotel, originally, and then in the Mayflower Apartments. Never really felt that Washington was his home, although it certainly was. He raised all of his children there. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, [chuckling] that's right. [chuckle--Burke] Right. That is hard to . . . to imagine a person from the . . . more or less a rural setting and still owning land and a farm and . . . and living in downtown Washington for all those . . . all those years. That's an interesting . . . BURKE: I . . . I guess . . . I guess you als- . . . you also knew that he was a Kentuckian and not a . . . and not a Washingtonian, that he . . . that he never gave that up because he had . . . he had occasional business affairs . . . business regarding his . . . I don't know, his home or his farm or his interests . . . his financial interests in Maysville. He would . . . while you would be with him, he . . . he . . . he would occasionally receive calls from . . . from home. From home! Can you imagine that? [chuckle--Birdwhistell] This was 1955 and 1956. He had been in Washington for twenty-five years. [chuckles] BIRDWHISTELL: For well over twenty years. [laughter] BURKE: It's really wonderful, just wonderful. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. But that's . . . that's why I like to ask the clerks that question, because it is an intriguing aspect about him, I think, about his makeup and where he placed himself in society, in a sense. I know the time I talked to him in the mid-`70s, I walked into his chamber in the Court where he . . . you know, he still had a chamber in there. He had a Bank of Maysville calendar on the wall [chuckle] . . . BURKE: Sure. Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . and I just thought that was a . . . that was kind of interesting. Of course, he had an extensive educational background, but he never received a . . . a law degree. BURKE: No, and he always joked about that. BIRDWHISTELL: Did he? BURKE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Absolutely. He was proud of it. BIRDWHISTELL: The fact that he . . . he made it the way he . . . the way he made it. BURKE: Yes, I . . . I th- . . . my recollection about that is that he . . . there was some smiling jealousy about the fact that Jackson--Robert Jackson--never went to law school at all. I've never checked that as a . . . as a fact, but I've [chuckle] heard that from Stanley Reed, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Never went to law . . . BURKE: . . . that Jackson never went to law school at all, and . . . and Reed wanted to relate himself to that. That is a . . . you know, "I never had a law degree [chuckle--Birdwhistell], but I went to . . . I went to law school. I studied law. So I was a little bit better prepared than . . . than Robert Jackson [chuckle-- Birdwhistell], . . . Bob Jackson," you see. [laughter] BIRDWHISTELL: That's great. That's . . . BURKE: Really. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . great. And, of course, he had . . . he had . . . as you've pointed out, he had an extensive background as a . . . as a government lawyer more or less, but he'd never been a judge. BURKE: That's right, also. BIRDWHISTELL: And I was just curious as to . . . if you had any impressions as to how this . . . these two factors, you know, affected him and his attitude toward the Court and his work. As you've already pointed out, he would joke about the . . . the law degree thing, but . . . BURKE: Well, not having been a . . . a judge before becoming a justice of the Supreme Court was very common. In his Court, I'm trying to think . . . geez, I wish I had a list of the sitting . . . of the then sitting ju- . . . justices, but I think that [John] Harlan . . . BIRDWHISTELL: I think that . . . [hands Burke a list] the . . . the time that you were there. BURKE: Well, thank you. Now, let's . . . let's go through that. Hugo Black had never been a judge, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: . . . nor Stanley Reed, nor Felix Frankfurter, nor William O. Douglas. Harold Burton may have been a state court judge for a short period of time. I'm not sure of that. But he . . . but Burton was primarily a politician. He was mayor of . . . of someplace in . . . in Ohio. BIRDWHISTELL: Well, they . . . you know, when [Frederick] Vinson was appointed, they . . . they tried to make some comment on that about him. He had only been a . . . a judge for [chuckle] a very short period at . . . BURKE: Yeah. Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . at a . . . at a low level. But I think you're correctly pointing out that . . . BURKE: And . . . and let me go on. Tom Clark had never been a judge. BIRDWHISTELL: That's right. BURKE: Sherman Minton had never been a judge. And Harlan is the only one. And . . . and Harlan, who came to the Court momentarily before the `55 term . . . he must have started in the 5- . . . late in the `54 term. How do I . . . how do I use this? BIRDWHISTELL: Let's see. Let me . . . In `54. Right here. `55 to `71. BURKE: That's when he served? BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: Oh. So, yes. He came to the Court in the late `54 term, which was in . . . during the year 1955. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. So it shows up as . . . BURKE: So he was very new on the Court when I . . . when I [chuckle] arrived. Now, John Harlan had been on the Second Circuit for not a very long period of time. I . . . my recollection is this . . . n- . . . certainly not more than a couple of years. That . . . that [Dwight D.] Eisenhower, who I believe appointed Harlan, had announced early in his presidency that he was going to appoint experienced judges, and so he created an experienced judge [chuckle] in . . . in Harlan. I might say Harlan was absolutely spectacularly suited to that job [chuckle--Birdwhistell], but he . . . he really hadn't been a judge very long. [laughter] BIRDWHISTELL: Th- . . . it's interesting how those things work out. BURKE: Yes. Yes. Oh, so . . . so to go back to your question, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: . . . it . . . it wasn't a subject of . . . of self- joking to not have been a judge before you got to the Court, because hardly anybody [chuckle--Birdwhistell] had been. It was a subject of some joking at the Court about Harlan having been prepared to come. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Sort of serving an apprenticeship. BURKE: Yes. Yes. Yes. See, so it was all the other way in those days. I . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Well, I think the . . . BURKE: . . . it's somewhat different now. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . you know, people looking at the Supreme Court, once it's . . . it's kind of mystical, in a sense, once a person's on the Supreme Court, after a few years they . . . they sort of take on this aura, you know, and people forget, you know, what they . . . you know, that they were district attorney [chuckle] and all in . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . in communities and all the things that they did. So it's . . . it's kind of an interesting perception of . . . of judges. BURKE: Sure. Sure. I failed to mention the other sitting justice at the time was Earl Warren, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: . . . who certainly had not been a judge. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right. During the time that you worked with Justice Reed, who was he closest to philosophically on the Court? I mean, in your opinion. BURKE: I think to both Clark and Min- . . . Minton. To some extent to Burton, but certainly to Clark and Minton. They were fairly uniformly on the same . . . of the same vote. Not . . . not totally uniformly, but fairly uniformly. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. What about personally? Who was he closest to personally? If . . . if he wanted to relax or wind down and talk to a . . . his friend on the Court, who would that be? BURKE: It would either have been Clark or Minton. But I might say that in a . . . to the extent that it was reasonably well understood that Clark, Minton, Burton . . . I should say, Clark, Minton, Reed and often Burton, were of the same mind. The . . . the other philosophical bent in the Court seemed to understand that, to the extent that they wanted to change anybody's vote or disposition, they would . . . they would focus on Stanley Reed and not on the others. I th- . . . I suspect on the theory that Reed would . . . was one more . . . more open to reasoning, to seeing other sides, to thinking other ways and . . . but, too, perhaps more importantly, he would have more influence with the others than . . . than any of the others . . . BIRDWHISTELL: The others would . . . BURKE: . . . would with . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . with the group. BURKE: . . . with . . . with the group. BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting, yeah. BURKE: He . . . he was certainly in a . . . he . . . he was . . . he was certainly thought to be, and was, a man of very, very high principle, and if you could . . . if you could convince him, he might be able to bring somebody with him. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Umhmm. What about his relationship with Frankfurter? How would you describe that relationship? BURKE: Distant. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Distant? [laughter] BURKE: Respec- . . . respectful on both sides. Not friendly. BIRDWHISTELL: But would it be Frankfurter who would often . . . or would come in and . . . and try to persuade Reed if . . . BURKE: Oh, yes. BIRDWHISTELL: He would be the one . . . BURKE: Oh, yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . that would represent the other side. BURKE: Absolutely. Yes, Reed . . . Reed did very little traveling around to other offices. Many people came to see Reed. He occasionally would go to see Sherman Minton, occasionally would go to see Tom Clark. And indeed, occasionally he would . . . he would go to see one of the others. But . . . but the real . . . the real . . . for want of a better [chuckle] word, the real opinion politician, as the people who were actively interested in persuading other justices to their view were . . . were the chief justice and . . . and Frankfurter. BIRDWHISTELL: I guess each of those could be considered persuasive type individuals. BURKE: Sure. I'm sure that Frankfurter was very persuasive to Harlan, often. I'm sure that Frankfurter would not have tried to persuade Douglas of anything [chuckle] and hardly would talk to him [chuckle- -Birdwhistell] and maybe never did, indeed. It was certainly thought that they didn't talk to each other. I can't swear that they didn't. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] And Frankfurter could talk easily with Burton and with . . . with Reed. I don't know whether Frankfurter had much interest . . . oh, and . . . and Frankfurter and Black would talk quite often. I'm . . . I don't have an impression about whether Frankfurter talked to Clark or Minton very much. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Umhmm. BURKE: Tha- . . . that's . . . I'm . . . I'm . . . I'm not talking about friendly talking; I'm talking about . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: . . . persuas- . . . persuas- . . . persuasive talk on an opinion. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right. BURKE: No, Reed was clearly available to be talked to, was interested in being talked to, but he was not interested in politicking any decision himself. BIRDWHISTELL: Uh-huh. He would be more interested in his . . . BURKE: In . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . his written opinions and . . . BURKE: . . . and . . . and in what he was going to decide [chuckle], you know. Really. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Yeah. Of course, you came to the Court at such an interesting period after `54. Was there still fallout from the . . . from the `54 Brown decision [Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka] that you could pick up on at the time? BURKE: No, I th- . . . well, I don't know whether the answer to that question is yes or no. It certainly was clear while I was there, from the very first day I walked into that wonderful building, that that had been a . . . a landmark among the justices. That they . . . whatever pain and trial and effort they went through to reach that decision, they were all committed to it and committed to . . . to carry themselves forward consistent with it. There was never an- . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Just . . . BURKE: Surely. BIRDWHISTELL: I hate to stop you . . . [End of Tape 1, Side 1] [Beginning of Tape 1, Side 2] BURKE: I was saying that from the outset of my experience at the Court, it was clear that . . . that whatever process they had gone through to unanimously sign on to the Brown versus Board of Education decision, that they were all individually committed to acting on every other case that had any relationship to that issue in a manner consistent with that case. There . . . there was a sense in which you seemed . . . in which I . . . I seemed to understand that . . . that that had been a uniprocess . . . internal process landmark, because there was no suggestion in any case that came during the term and a half that I was there that had any relationship to those issues, that . . . that anyone was interested in trying to begin to eat away at . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Reinterpret it once again. BURKE: . . . or reinterpret it, that's right. That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: Well . . . well, it's interesting, you know, coming . . . you coming on as . . . as Reed's clerk at this time, because the more you read about the Brown decision, the more you . . . you know, the more people are looking at that. You know, Reed's coming out as the last . . . the very last holdout . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . on that, and of course with . . . trying to think of what we've talked about in terms of how Reed . . . his process for arriving at decisions and to . . . to try and think of it in terms of Chief Justice Warren [chuckle] changing his mind with . . . it makes for an interesting process, it . . . it . . . it seems to me. BURKE: Umhmm. Warren was . . . was still, of course, very new at the Court when . . . when I was there, and there was a feeling of . . . general feeling in the Court--and I don't know whether I'm expressing an impression based primarily on the gossip of clerks, one among the other, or [chuckle--Birdwhistell] . . . or whether it was more important and more real than that--but it was clear to me, for whatever reason, that despite Brown against Board of Education of the previous term, that Warren was still floundering for respect in position on the Court. His . . . he had some very unusual rules that governed his chambers, that the other clerks became aware av- . . . aware of very early, and as a consequence, the ju- . . . the other justices automatically would become aware of it, because we would all tell our [chuckle--Birdwhistell] justices. Rules like, after every session with his . . . with his clerks, he . . . he would decide whether or not his clerks could repeat or discuss whatever they had discussed [chuckle--Birdwhistell], and, if so, what part of it they could discuss with other clerks or with other justices. He was still very uneasy, probably, not sure of himself enough, so that he had to control information that came out of his chambers. It was . . . and . . . and Reed thought that that was understandable. He was . . . he . . . he's . . . he was a man who . . . who could understand anybody's failures, you know? He could understand why . . . why Warren needed for some period of time, until he got more used to what his role was, to control his . . . the information flow out of his chambers. He thought that that would not be a permanent problem. And it . . . and it clearly was not a permanent problem. But there was a lot of laughter about all that among the clerks, and some of the justices thought that he was . . . might not even make it, [because] he was . . . he was so uptight about . . . about the whole situation. Interesting. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: But, from the way you explain it, you get a picture of Reed sort of in a pattern that he had established early on, to be very . . . or not to be one who would attack Warren, but to let it work its way out and . . . BURKE: Stanley Reed wouldn't . . . wouldn't attack [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] anybody. If for no other reason, it wasn't important for him to . . . it . . . what was most important to him was to be . . . to have pleasant relationships and to sincerely believe in what he was doing, you know. BIRDWHISTELL: As [chuckling] long as he had that under control, he . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . he was okay. BURKE: Sure. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: What about the previous chief justice, Fred Vinson? Did he ever talk about Fred Vinson with you at all, or give you any in- . . . indication of his impressions of him? BURKE: Not that I recall. No. Perhaps some . . . perhaps some joking references to Vinson's relationship with Truman. Certainly I don't recall any . . . any substantive matter relating to the Court. I . . . I think that . . . I . . . I . . . I believe that Reed's star chief justice . . . why can't I bring his name back to my mind? Just a minute, I'll find him here. Maybe we ought to pause. BIRDWHISTELL: Okay. [Interruption in taping] BIRDWHISTELL: . . . favorite chief justice in . . . BURKE: I . . . I . . . as I was saying, I . . . I have the impression, a fairly strong impression, that . . . that Reed's favorite chief justice was Charles Evans Hughes. Primarily that impression comes from the fact that he talked most about Hughes' style in . . . in administration and strength and . . . and what a figure he was. Probably--not having known Hughes [chuckling] myself--probably Hughes was of the old style of dignity and politeness. Although I also have the impression that . . . that Reed would . . . would enjoy talking about . . . about Hughes' strength of language . . . his, probably, colorful language for the Court. He was, in some respects, known as a . . . as a tyrant. But Reed would talk about it in all good humor, as though that was just a wonderful part of the scene and the history and the feel of . . . of the history of the Court. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. BURKE: Stanley Reed really . . . really . . . really thought about the Court and all of its little foibles and . . . and funninesses as though they were important parts of the history of . . . of the institution. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Sort of part of en- . . . you know, the entire tradition of . . . BURKE: Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . of who he was. BURKE: Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: I think you've given a pretty good indication of the relationship between the justices [and] their attitudes toward one another. What about the . . . the way Reed was perceived by other clerks at the Court? Did you get an indication of that in terms of the other law clerks, how they would view Reed and . . . BURKE: I certainly have a very [chuckle--Birdwhistell] clear impression about all that. I think it's probably twofold. The twofold impression is that the . . . most of the other clerks were . . . would have preferred working for Reed than for whomever they were working for. Not all, but many would have so preferred. Probably the most extreme example of that is . . . is Douglas' clerk. I don't know whether you know this, by the way, but at that time, and I think probably until his retirement, Douglas did not have two clerks. He had one clerk. He had two secretaries and one clerk [chuckle--Birdwhistell] rather than two clerks and one secretary. And he . . . his cler- . . . his single clerk had to do all of the cert petitions, whereas every . . . in every other office there were two clerks to divide the cert petitions, which was . . . which was the menial part of the work. And as a consequence, Douglas' clerk almost never had time to deal in any depth at all on . . . on the cases that were actually before the Court, and moreover, Douglas really didn't have much time for his clerks. He wasn't interested in . . . in that whole institution. And it was a job, and it was a wonderful job to have, but if you were going to work for any justice of the Supreme Court, you'd be much better . . . everybody understood they would rather be with Reed than Douglas. Similarly, at that point in time, aside from the prestige factor of working for the . . . the additional prestige factor of working for the chief justice, he was, as a personality at that point in his career, was not very dependable and was . . . was . . . was still working on who he was in the Court, and didn't have a sense of . . . of desire to . . . to teach his clerks and to spend time with them. He . . . he needed them badly, but he didn't offer them much except a lot of work. [chuckle] Harlan was also very new on the Court, even newer than . . . than Earl Warren. Although I must say that the Harlan . . . the Harlan clerks loved him dearly, and . . . and he spent a great deal of time with them, probably . . . probably more than Reed spent with his clerks, although again, if you had asked, people would have rather have spent their time with Reed, because . . . because again, Harlan was . . . had to . . . had to work so hard. This was his first complete term, indeed. And he w- . . . and while he was a very wonderful man, he . . . he couldn't bring to his clerks the history of the Court like . . . like you could while you were . . . were surrounding yourself with Reed and his stories and . . . and his dignity and his . . . you know, he w- . . . he's . . . he would . . . really felt like a part of the history of the Court, to me. And Harlan couldn't give you that. Clark and Minton were both very pleasant men, and I had a . . . I had a lot of social fun . . . I personally had a lot of social fun with those two men. In fact, both Rod Hills and myself played golf a couple times with . . . with Reed and Clark, and Minton was always in . . . in our . . . in . . . in the office . . . in . . . in . . . in Reed's law clerks' office telling jokes. He was [chuckle--Birdwhistell] . . . he was right next door to our office, and we spent a lot of time joking around with . . . with Minton. But again, they . . . they didn't seem to be as much of the . . . a part of the history of the Court, and weren't . . . didn't seem to be as serious about their work. Their clerks got to do a lot of opinion writing, much more than . . . than Hills and I did, and that was rewarding to them, but they didn't spend a lot of time with their justices. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. What about in the sense that law clerks might tend to be a little more liberal coming out of law school, and . . . BURKE: Oh, yeah. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . would be more . . . faster to criticize Reed for some of his opinions at this time. Did you find yourself . . . BURKE: Defending him. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . defending him, in that . . . BURKE: Oh, yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . in that regard? BURKE: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. BIRDWHISTELL: They would . . . you know, like you all would be sitting down in the cafeteria having coffee, and one of the clerks would say, "How could he take that position?" And you . . . you would try to explain where he was coming from . . . BURKE: Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . on that? BURKE: Sure. Although, . . . yeah. A lot of that went on and, indeed, a lot of that went on between . . . between Rod Hills and myself. BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really? [laughter] In . . . in what way? BURKE: Rod was much more focused on . . . on trying to change the . . . the justice's mind than I was. This is not a put-down to Rod at all. I was . . . I didn't view that as an important part of my function. I viewed it important to tell the justice what I thought, even . . . even when I thought . . . wh- . . . even when the . . . it would be the case that I would come out differently than he. But wha- . . . Rod was very interested in trying to change his mind. I was not interested in that. I was interested in having him know what I thought, and then I was interested in support . . . in . . . in trying to marshal for him the support that he needed for what he thought. It's just a different . . . a difference in background, I suppose, more than anything else. A great number of the clerks who were there were more of the disposition of . . . of Rod than I . . . than . . . than to my disposition, in that regard. Perhaps it was that I found the work . . . I found the work, maybe, more challenging just to give him the support that he needed, and had little time for . . . for trying to change his mind. That's not to say that I didn't occasionally try to change his mind. I was not terribly interested in . . . in that whole set of conversations, actually. I would support him. I would say why I thought he was doing what he was doing, or why he was disposed the way he was disposed. I would say to anyone who asked whether I agreed or not . . . not, but I didn't have much time to spend hours arguing with people. [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] I wanted to keep up with my work. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: It takes a lot of energy and time to . . . BURKE: Oh, yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . [chuckle] to do all that. BURKE: Well, to do it. Yeah. It does take a lot. It . . . BIRDWHISTELL: That's . . . BURKE: . . . did take a lot of energy and time. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . that's interesting. BURKE: On the issue of . . . well, y- . . . I guess you haven't asked this, but on the is- . . . I brought up while I was speaking to the last question, how . . . how some of the clerks spent their time differently than others. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. That's . . . that's a good . . . good topic. BURKE: Reed was . . . as it turned out after the summer, when we fi- . . . when we finally got to work directly with him, Reed was not as interested in full-blown, thorough analyses of cert petitions as some of the other justices were. He wanted . . . in effect, what he wanted you to do on cert petitions was he wanted you to, as . . . in sh- . . . in as few words as [chuckling] possible, tell him what the issues were and tell him what the turning issue was in . . . as a result of your reading of the petition, and . . . and the reply and what the . . . s- . . . so, as a consequence, what the large issue or issues were and what the main arguments were on both sides, and hopefully only one on each side. He . . . he really wanted you to synthesize then as much as possible to give him a sense of . . . of how important it was or wasn't. He was more interested in learning how important the matter was than whether or not it had been decided correctly below. BIRDWHISTELL: Hmm! BURKE: Which is a good perception, by the way. As a consequence, our . . . our cert petitions . . . I mean our cert memos were . . . were significantly . . . almost uniformly were significantly less long than almost any other clerk cert petitions. And he could go through those very, very quickly. And then he would . . . he would end up with a much smaller group, and then he'd want . . . he'd want those s- . . . with . . . with broader, longer, analytical memos. I . . . I always . . . I always thought that it was exactly what he should be doing, exactly the focus he should to give to you, and as a consequence we had much more time to spend with him. And we had much more time then to spend with him on . . . on his opinions. And we even had a lot of time to go to oral arguments. A lot of those clerks never . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Never saw those. BURKE: . . . would show up in court because they were constantly researching on all these cert petitions. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, one of the criticisms of the Court and the use of the clerks was the fact that clerks were wri- . . . you know, writing so much of the opinions, it's . . . for certain justices, I guess. But with Reed, that cert- . . . from what you've said, that certainly wasn't the case. BURKE: It certainly was not often the case, that's right. Occasionally . . . more often than not, he would . . . he would do the first draft of any opinion that he was writing. And he . . . what he wanted you to do then was to edit . . . edit it and add to it and to help it, to . . . you know, to help the logic of it, to help the arrangement of it, to . . . to give more support to it, and certainly to find any logic errors in it and to discuss those with him. And he was certainly not . . . he . . . he would not discourage you from rewriting major parts of it, but he would . . . he would seldom let anything go out that wasn't comfortably said in his words. He . . . he . . . he certainly never wanted to be known as a justice whose opinions were written by his law clerks. That's not to say his law clerks didn't write some parts of each of his opinions, although, almost without fail, he would change some words to make it feel more like him to him. That was important to him, as it . . . as well it should have been. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: How would you evaluate him as a writer of legal opinions? BURKE: [Grade] "C." [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: He had a . . . apparently had a . . . a . . . writing wasn't easy to him as . . . as it would be to Douglas. BURKE: Very difficult. BIRDWHISTELL: It was an agonizing type . . . BURKE: Agonizing. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . slow [inaudible] . . . BURKE: Absolutely excruciating. Umhmm. Excruciating. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. I think someone was telling me once, you know, just one word, as you were pointing out. You know, he would change one word in something you all might write and he would spend a lot of time agonizing over one word with his . . . with his dictionary and . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . trying to . . . BURKE: That's right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . to come to grips with that. BURKE: But, you know, I mean in . . . in your own life, you do recognize that there's a lot of difference in . . . in styles of . . . of writing, a lot of differences in clarity of writing. To him it was more important to be sure that he said it the way that he believed it, and that . . . and if he understood it, that was close to being enough. I always . . . I always thought that that wasn't the total job, because . . . because of the . . . because of the wide precedent use of opinions from the Court. But however clear any opinion is, you know, we all know that there are lawyers out there who will interpret it a lot of different ways in any event. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Or try to. BURKE: Or try to. [laughter] BIRDWHISTELL: But now, you . . . you mentioned something that's interesting about Justice Reed, and it . . . something clicked in my mind, that somebody's . . . may have said that before also, that . . . that if he was satisfied with it himself, and really was in con- . . . and it's sort of like . . . it sort of in comparison to his relationship with the other justices. As long as he knew what he believed, he was comfortable, and it sort of seemed to carry over into his opinion writing, that if he . . . BURKE: Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . felt comfortable with that, then it would just have to . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . do its best on its own out there. BURKE: Yes. Al- . . . although he wanted to . . . he wanted to . . . he wanted to say it better if it was comfortable to say it better. You know, he did want . . . he did want you tell him that maybe it works better this way [chuckle--Birdwhistell], or with this word or with this sentence or with this phrase. So he was interested in . . . in . . . in critiques and criticism and . . . and in editing. But when it finally came down to it and he had to let it go, and . . . and he didn't often want to let it go [chuckle-- Birdwhistell], he . . . he held on to the last before he'd circulate. He . . . he simply had to let it go the way he thought about it and the way . . . the way it sounded right to him, [chuckle] you know. But there's a sense in which we're all that way. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Right. But did . . . as a clerk, did you find it sometimes frustrating, you know, waiting for him to choose the right word, . . . BURKE: Yes. Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . having to . . . BURKE: Umhmm. And I . . . I often found it frustrating to know that he had . . . he had decided what he wanted . . . which way he wanted to go, and he had drafted it, and it had been redrafted and edited and re-edited [chuckle--Birdwhistell] and talked about, and . . . and yet he still often would let it sit on his desk to buy more time, to . . . to read it three days later and still . . . to see whether he still felt okay about it. He didn't rush to get anything [chuckle--Birdwhistell] out. He was a careful man. A careful man. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I . . . I think . . . and . . . and when you put it in a context of what we've talked about in terms of his personality and his outlook and his . . . the way he operated, that this hesitancy to let it go wasn't insecurity, . . . BURKE: Oh, no. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . in a sense. It was just a matter of wanting to do it as . . . as best he could, not being afraid of . . . BURKE: Well, I'm . . . I said, "Oh, no, no, no," but I'm not sure, "Oh, no, no, no." [chuckle--Birdwhistell] BIRDWHISTELL: Maybe a [inaudible]? BURKE: He certainly was not insecure about his votes. He was not insecure about . . . about where he thought a case should come out. He perhaps had some insecurity about . . . about the way he wrote. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. That may have been the hesitancy. Often it would happen that they would go to conference and, you know, less than an hour after conference, something would be circulated by someone, not infrequently by William O. Douglas. [chuckle-- Birdwhistell] And . . . and it o- . . . and if it were . . . if it had been Douglas who did it, it would . . . it would always be amazingly articulate. Not necessarily comprehensive, but . . . but nice reading [chuckle], you know. But . . . and . . . and . . . and Felix Frankfurter was like . . . that way, too. Felix Frankfurter is a superb word craftsman, as you . . . as I'm sure you know. And . . . and he didn't find it painful to write. He . . . it . . . words came to him quite naturally, both orally and in writing. And he circulated a lot of material, very fast. Never . . . never would Reed do that. No way would he ever do that. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. Are there any particular opinions that you were involved with during your term there that . . . that stand out in your mind that were interesting to you, in particular, or that you became more involved in than others, say? BURKE: Yes, although I don't remember the name of the case. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Let's see. BURKE: And . . . and it probably isn't important to this interview in any event, because my interest in it became so personal and it has almost nothing [chuckle] to do with Stanley Reed. [chuckle] Excuse me one minute. I'll look at this list. [Interruption in taping] BURKE: Geez, I wish we could get this case. The . . . the case I was making an amusing reference to wa- . . . I believe was Shields versus Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Company, in which he was the dissenter. That case was a very minor, unimportant case in the . . . in the term of the Court, although for reasons that are not clear to me at this distant time, I believe it came out 5-4, and it was unclear, until it was finally pub- . . . published, which way it [chuckle] was going to go. I think at one time Reed was assigned to write the majority opinion, and Minton was assigned . . . and . . . and Minton was in the dissent. And he was . . . he indicated he was going to write the dissenting opinion. As a matter of fact, Minton's opinion became the majority opinion, and I cannot recall who switched. But the reason, totally apart from . . . from the justice, the reason I became so interested in that opinion then, and the reason I remember it so [chuckle] well, was not because it had any important issue in it at all--I don't even remember what the issue was--but th- . . . Minton's law clerk, who was just two doors from . . . from our office, and I kept exchanging drafts, where he was writing . . . he and . . . and Minton were writing one side, and Reed and I were writing the other side. And before the justices were circulating to each other, this . . . Minton's clerk and I [chuckle--Birdwhistell] would compare notes. And we . . . we . . . we tried . . . and it wasn't a game, although it certainly was intellectually challenging and . . . and . . . and did have a level of amusement about it, but we tried our damnedest to . . . to make the opinions meet exactly the same issues in the same order. [laughter] And so it . . . it became somewhat of a . . . of a crossword puzzle. We . . . we . . . we clearly wanted to see where the crucial sentence would come, where . . . where . . . which would shift one person to one side and one person to the other side. I was convinced that . . . that Reed's side was right, and he was convinced that Minton's side was right. And we could never . . . and . . . and . . . and we were bound and determined to try to discover where the single sentence was where . . . which shifted you from one side to the other side. I have not since . . . since that pi- . . . opinion was published, ever gone back to read [it] to see whether it still works that way. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: It might be interesting to you. [chuckle] BURKE: It really . . . it really might be. That fellow was a . . . wa- . . . became a very fond friend of mine afterward. His name is Bob Cole, although I've currently lost track of him. BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I think that's a . . . a . . . that story, though, is a good example of how . . . how . . . how these opinions are structured in the sense of how you try to arrive at that . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . those issues, and what it comes down to, really, in the . . . in terms for the . . . in . . . in terms of the layperson understanding, you know, how these . . . how . . . how these things really . . . BURKE: Umhmm. Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . come about. It [chuckle] . . . were there any opinions that you found quite frustrating in the sense that you . . . you know, you said earlier you didn't really try and go in and try and convince him otherwise, but where you may have wished you could have, in a . . . in a sense? BURKE: Gee, I d- . . . I really don't recall. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: The . . . that . . . that term was not a . . . a terribly challenging term. I don't know whether history will show that or not, but it was challenging to me as an unwashed kid [chuckle- -Birdwhistell]. But it wasn't a term that produced any outstanding historical moments in judicial history. And I . . . I've been away from it so long, I simply don't . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: . . . that question doesn't ring a bell with me. BIRDWHISTELL: One writer has suggested that it's not easy to label Reed. He tended to be an economic liberal and a civil rights conservative. How would you react to that . . . that evaluation of him? BURKE: I would react very favorably to that. BIRDWHISTELL: You think . . . BURKE: It's . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . it's a . . . that's a fair . . . BURKE: . . . to the extent that generalities are always . . . always have some inherent weakness about them. If one must generalize, that would . . . that would be a reasonable historical characterization of this man . . . BIRDWHISTELL: And it would go . . . BURKE: . . . and his work. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . it would fit nicely into the labeling of Reed, I suppose, as in favor of big government and in . . . and a believer in judicial restraint on the other hand. BURKE: Yes. Umhmm. Umhmm. He trusted government a lot. He was very trustworthy of government, I think. BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, he was the second appointee of . . . of [Franklin D.] Roosevelt, . . . BURKE: Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . af- . . . after Black. And when he went on the Court, he was clearly left of center, if we can use those kinds . . . BURKE: Yes, he was. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . of labels. By the time he reached retirement, by the time you . . . you know, during the period, I guess, when you were his clerk . . . BURKE: He was . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . he was pretty much right of . . . BURKE: That's . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . right of center. BURKE: . . . that's absolutely true. BIRDWHISTELL: And maybe this isn't a fair question, or . . . or . . . but I was wondering, you know, had . . . did Reed change, or was it just the makeup of the Court, that it sort of shifted? He had . . . had he remained pretty much philosophically . . . BURKE: That's . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . the same? BURKE: . . . what he said. He said he did. He said he did. He recognized exactly what you . . . BIRDWHISTELL: He . . . he saw it all . . . BURKE: . . . just described. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . going on [chuckle], and . . . and . . . and . . . BURKE: He . . . he . . . he believed sincerely that the . . . that the world moved [chuckle] and he was stationary, philosophically. BIRDWHISTELL: And he was comfortable with . . . with that. BURKE: Oh, yes. Certainly he was. Absolutely he was. That . . . and there certainly may have been a sense in which that was true. You know, cert- . . . well, I was . . . it was still pretty early in . . . in Warren's reign but, you know, Black was so . . . so much the . . . the leader of . . . of the liberal side of the Court for so long, and . . . and other than on certain special issues, including judicial restraint, Frankfurter was generally disposed in that direction, and certainly William O. Douglas was. And I think that . . . I think that the Court immediately before this was much more to Reed's disposition, and he maybe looked a lot lib- . . . a lot like a liberal until all of these very, very strong liberals came to the Court, one of which immediately before him, but not very much before him, and one of them soon after him. But they were strong, strong leaders of . . . of a lot of . . . a lot of opinion on that Court. BIRDWHISTELL: Let . . . let me change the tape here. [End of Tape 1, Side 2] [Beginning of Tape 2, Side 1] BIRDWHISTELL: I guess people find that difference in . . . or, not the difference in Reed, but the makeup of his outlook in terms that he . . . as a New Dealer himself, you know, he could be supportive of all types of government programs that were generated, you know, during the New Deal period and later, and then si- . . . on . . . on the other side of that coin, to look at how he viewed how the . . . how the Court should interact with society in . . . in a sense. But I suppose he was just saying that the representatives of the people in the legislature should change . . . change the law . . . BURKE: Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . as . . . as they reflect the opinion of the people. BURKE: Sure. Absolutely. And in that sense, of course, he was . . . he was . . . he and Frankfurter were on the same side of all of that. Frankfurter was . . . was the flaming judicial restraint guy. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] And that . . . but that was a very, very comfortable concept to Stanley Reed. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. Many people who study the Court give Justice Reed low marks for his stands on civil . . . civil liberties. How would you explain . . . explain his outlook on those types of cases? BURKE: I don't know whether I can. Remembering that . . . that I came there after he . . . he . . . he did go along with Brown . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: . . . and certainly it was well understood that he was . . . he was slow in getting [chuckling] there. BIRDWHISTELL: Umhmm. Umhmm. I guess I was thinking, too, in terms of the cases that came up about the Communist party and those . . . those types of . . . BURKE: Ah! BIRDWHISTELL: . . . aside from what we classify as civil ri- . . . what's become known as civil rights, but the . . . the . . . the ability of the government to protect itself, those types of . . . from subversion . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . [inaudible]. BURKE: Well, I . . . I have an interesting personal s- . . . scenario about that. The year I was with Barrett Prettyman, I spent a great deal of that term writing probably the longest opinion . . . helping Barrett Prettyman write probably the longest opinion that . . . that the D.C. Circuit had . . . had ever published, a case entitled The Communist Party [chuckle] against the United States. And it was . . . it was absolutely the longest tome on that whole . . . in that whole area. And that case came to the Supreme Court while I was there . . . while I was with Reed. Part of it came, actually. I'm sure he didn't write in it. But in any event, early on, after the justice arrived, we all knew that part of that case was coming. In fact it may have . . . it may have been part of the summer work. The justice made it clear to me that he did not want to talk to me or deal with me at all in that area, because Prettyman's opinion had been so long and so heralded and so seemingly thorough, it . . . it had . . . it . . . it was then thought of as the . . . as "The Work" in al- . . . on all of those issues . . . on all of those related issues. And so Reed was aware of it, and he was aware that I had . . . that I must have been involved with . . . with Prettyman, because it was such a tour de force that he . . . he . . . he said to me early on that he . . . that he wanted me to understand that he thought that it wasn't comfortable to him to deal with . . . to have me dealing with him on any . . . any of the issues relating to that case or in that area of the law. BIRDWHISTELL: Not just that case, but . . . BURKE: Right. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . because that had been such a . . . BURKE: Because . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . such a l- . . . landmark. BURKE: . . . it had been s- . . . it had been "The Work," you see. Ultimately it didn't hold up very well, I might say. [laughter] But it certainly was a . . . a masterful original piece of work of great length. It was . . . I don't know, it was three hundred and some odd pages, I think. BIRDWHISTELL: Is it fair to try and . . . and . . . and summarize what that . . . how that wo- . . . at . . . that case . . . BURKE: How Prettyman . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . came out . . . BURKE: . . . came out on . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . yeah, how he came out on that. BURKE: Well, Prettyman w- . . . found in favor of the government on almost every issue. [chuckle] A few minor ones went the other way, but in general, he was very, very much affirmative for the Subversive Activities Control Board. That was the name of the case. It was somebody against the Subversive Activities Control Board. It was the first total review of that whole legislation. And then it later came to the Court in pieces and was chopped away in pieces. BIRDWHISTELL: It . . . it seems that, of the critics of Justice Reed, the ones that are . . . where he's getting the most criticism would be in the area of civil . . . civil liberties, . . . BURKE: Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . I guess, . . . BURKE: Umhmm. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . and the way he viewed the government's right, I guess, in that sense. BURKE: Umhmm. Well, that's . . . that's not surprising with the background of that man, is it? Really? BIRDWHISTELL: No. BURKE: You know, I don't know how old Stanley Reed was when he came to Washington, but he wasn't . . . he was a relatively young man when Hoover brought him to Washington. And he really grew up . . . he matured and grew up as a . . . as a senior government officer in a lot of different places in the government. He certainly spent a lot of time at the Department of Justice, among other places. He saw a reasonable number of presidents. [chuckle--Birdwhistell] BIRDWHISTELL: And so, if you're . . . if you trust government and you're . . . BURKE: Oh, and . . . and he . . . and he came from a small, small farm town, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: . . . kind of Midwest. Comes from a conservative background. It's not surprising to me. BIRDWHISTELL: So . . . so you trust government and you . . . you're an advocate of bigger government, so then government would do right by its people. So you . . . BURKE: Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . so you must give them that abil- . . . you must give government the ability to protect itself. BURKE: Absolutely, from his standpoint. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. [laughter] Right. Yeah, right, trying to look how he would . . . how he would view that. What about the . . . the Reeds' social life in . . . in Washington? Did you have a . . . a chance to get a picture of what their . . . you . . . you mentioned playing golf and . . . BURKE: Oh, I . . . I . . . I have some impression about it. I certainly wouldn't want to imply that I was heavily involved in his social life. I . . . my impression is that he had very little social life. In the spring and . . . and in the fall, he would occasionally play golf at Burning Tree, but he was not a country club type. He lived, as . . . as we've previously said, in the Mayflower and in fairly small "digs" . . . small space. He was very conscious of his health. Extremely conscious of his health. And my impression is that he retired early. He drank very little, only very occasionally, and that would be a glass of wine or a glass of brandy. He was not a partying type of man at all, really. He had a few close friends. He . . . he had a wife who was . . . with whom he was very close all the time. And he worked very hard until his retirement and pro- . . . probably even thereafter, although I . . . I'm not very focused on that . . . on that period. I think I had dinner at his apartment probably twice, but only small and only . . . I can't even remember, but it wouldn't have been more than me and maybe Rod, or me and my wife and Rod and his wife or . . . or his . . . or his then fiancee, I should say. Not a . . . not very much social life, really. BIRDWHISTELL: He was still on the rice . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . lunch . . . for lunch he had every day? BURKE: Rice very day for lunch. Rice every day for lunch. He brought it . . . he brought it in his little bag with him. [chuckle- -Birdwhistell] BIRDWHISTELL: And would have lunch about the same time every day, I . . . I . . . BURKE: Yes. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . understand. BURKE: A man of almost complete routine. That's right. He . . . he . . . I'm trying to remember whether or not he . . . whether or not he often went upstairs to the . . . to where the justices dined and took his lunch with him. I think probably it was a mixture. Sometimes he'd go up and take his bag upstairs, and sometimes he'd . . . he'd eat at his desk. You knew that historically he had been a very heavy smoker and that he had stopped, I don't know, five or six or eight years before this time, and had put on a great deal of weight, apparently, when he stopped. And was so focused on . . . on keeping his weight down, and . . . and by the time I saw him, he was a very slim man. But he needed to remain that way. BIRDWHISTELL: Did he . . . was his health pretty good while you worked with him? BURKE: Oh, yes. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. I guess so. You know, you were talking about how hard he worked and his . . . BURKE: Oh, his health . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . that stamina . . . BURKE: . . . his health certainly seemed perfect. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: You wondered how he did it all, I guess. BURKE: But he took very good . . . good care of himself. Very good care of himself. Really. BIRDWHISTELL: Well, of course, Reed had come out of a . . . of a political setting when he came to Washington, and he still was involved in politics, of course, in the . . . in the Roosevelt administration. What was your impression of his interest in politics at the time you knew him, in terms of, say, the Eisenhower administration or maybe other Kentucky politicians that were there at the time? Did he have . . . did he express much of an interest in that . . . BURKE: No. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . area? BURKE: No. Ki- . . . kind of a . . . just as a distant observer. H- . . . my impression is that he . . . he simply, by tha- . . . by the time I knew him, he had . . . he had . . . he had insulated himself. He had . . . he ha- . . . this was the last thing that he was going to do, and he was comfortable doing it, and he wasn't interested in . . . he . . . he had no further ambitions. He was . . . he thought of himself as being somewhat frail. M- . . . he thought of himself as being much more frail than he actually was. BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, really? BURKE: He had seen it all, I guess [chuckle--Birdwhistell], and there wasn't . . . he didn't . . . he didn't have a next step in mind like . . . like Douglas did from time to time, [chuckling] for example. He didn't . . . he didn't fashion himself as being likely to ever be the chief justice, for example. He certainly never considered . . . I'm sure, over his entire Court career, he never considered resigning to run for anything or to be somebody's cabinet officer like some of them did. He was very comfortable with his life and not . . . not very needful in terms of ambition or society. He wanted to do a good job. He wanted to . . . he wanted to do his work as competently as he could. And he wanted to remain healthy, and he wanted his wife to remain healthy. And he didn't want to expose himself to physical risks or . . . he wanted to take care of himself. [chuckle]. Nice, nice man. Really a nice man. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Did he . . . did he talk about retirement at all while you were there? BURKE: Yes. In fact, he announced his retirement while I was there. BIRDWHISTELL: Oh, he did? [chuckle] Gosh, that's something I should have known! [chuckle] BURKE: Yes. Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not sure that he announced it publicly while I was there, but he certainly told Rod and me. He . . . we were coming to . . . toward the end of the `54 term, which was, you know, spring of `55. I mean . . . I'm sorry, toward the end of the `55 term, which was spring of `56, and he began to talk about not r- . . . about not beginning the next term. And he would ask us to keep those . . . those conversations confidential. He ultimately later, as the term was coming closer to an end, and I cannot remember why, but he decided that he was going to begin the next term, and he asked us to . . . to share . . . he asked Rod and me to share the burden of getting his office through the summer and . . . and through the beginning of the term. And so Rod and I . . . and he . . . and he didn't hire another clerk. BIRDWHISTELL: I remember that now. Yeah. BURKE: And Rod and I divided it up, and . . . and I can't quite remember how we . . . how we decided to do that or what the precise division was, but basically I took the first substantial part of the summer, probably through late July or August, to try to keep up with the cert posi- . . . petitions, and then Rod came . . . Rod went on vacation and then Rod came back, and then I went on vacation, and then we were both there for . . . for the first month or so of the term . . . of the . . . of the `56 term. And then he . . . and then he did hire another clerk after he came back, whose name was . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Let's see [looks at list] [chuckle--Burke] . . . BURKE: I remember his face very well. Yeah. Manley Hudson. He's a very nice fellow. Extremely nice man. Manley Hudson. BIRDWHISTELL: Could it have been that . . . that Justice Reed was waiting till after the presidential elections, to see who might be appointing the next . . . BURKE: It could have been. W- . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . replacement? BURKE: . . . was that . . . is that right, though? BIRDWHISTELL: `56. BURKE: `56 was . . . BIRDWHISTELL: November, `56. BURKE: . . . was the election. No, but we are now in . . . `56. Well, that's right. That's right. But is it . . . but isn't it a fact that he retired before the election? BIRDWHISTELL: Well, the election was in November of `56 and he retired in `57. BURKE: In April of `57? Oh, okay. BIRDWHISTELL: So, he might have been waiting . . . might have been enough Democrat left in him . . . BURKE: Yes. And [chuckle--Birdwhistell] . . . and in fact . . . in fact, now you say that, that . . . that clearly is the case. I don't know why I didn't have that focus. That is . . . that is clearly what he was doing. Sure. Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: So . . . BURKE: Umhmm. But he certainly wanted . . . you know, he . . . he was . . . he was ready to g- . . . ready to stop. He was . . . BIRDWHISTELL: He was j- . . . BURKE: . . . ready to stop. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . he was just tired of the . . . of the . . . of the . . . BURKE: Of . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . pressure . . . BURKE: . . . of the pressure. BIRDWHISTELL: . . . and the constant workload? BURKE: Sure. But he lasted a lot of years beyond that. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Granted. That's right. BURKE: And kept coming to the Court, I understand, almost constantly. BIRDWHISTELL: It . . . it comes up occasionally, you know, that, as you point out, at the time he retired, he was in good health and he still enjoyed his work. Some people have wondered if, you know, the fact that he was . . . he came on at the time that they were attacking the "Nine Old Men" of the Court, the concern over the ages of . . . of justices, that he felt compelled to . . . to do his part and . . . and step down at that time. That . . . does that seem to fit at all? BURKE: Doesn't fit with me, no. I'd . . . I don't . . . I can't even recall how old he was at that point in time. I didn't think of him as ancient, by any means. He was a very vigorous man. Let's see, do you . . . when was his birth date? On the other hand, he certainly had been there a long time. He must have been there for sixteen or seventeen years by then . . . fifteen or sixteen years. BIRDWHISTELL: December 31st, 1884. BURKE: 1884. So, `85 . . . that's 16 plus 55. Fifty-five, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Seventy-one. BURKE: . . . sixty-five, sev- . . . so he was . . . yeah, he was in his early seventies. Sure. BIRDWHISTELL: So . . . BURKE: But isn't it the case that Frankfurter was probably older than he? Maybe . . . maybe an immediate contemporary. Black was older than he. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: And that's . . . that's about it. Frankfur- . . . Frankfurter may have been . . . may or may not have been older than he. Black was clearly somewhat older than he, but he was . . . he was one of the "old men" of the Court, sure. BIRDWHISTELL: In . . . in looking back at his career and . . . what do . . . how would you evaluate Justice Reed's career if you had to sort of give an overview of it, [or] an evaluation of his accomplishments and . . . BURKE: Of his accomplishments? Well, first let me . . . let me evaluate his career. BIRDWHISTELL: Okay. BURKE: He had a fantastic career. He really did a lot of things. To have been as deeply involved in . . . in the early days of the Roosevelt administration, in as important a series of positions as he was, must have been absolutely exciting [chuckling], you know, and a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for . . . for a man from Maysville, Kentucky. For a man from anywhere, indeed. Wonderful opportunities that he had, and he . . . and he went from step . . . from one thing to another. BIRDWHISTELL: He a- . . . he appreciated that happening to him, too, it seems. BURKE: And he certainly was a . . . he certainly appreciated it. Absolutely. And it . . . and it even feels better to s- . . . to observe that it happened to somebody who could . . . who could even appreciate it, you know? [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. That's right. That's inter- . . . yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point, that he . . . he was almost . . . BURKE: He . . . another thing, I think, about his career is that he . . . he took a . . . he took a very substantial risk in his career at . . . on one occasion. Or, I should say, on several occasions with respect to one matter. While he was Solicitor General, he was offered a position by Roosevelt, several times, to go on the D.C. Circuit. And . . . and several times he turned it down because he wanted, badly, to have an opportunity to go to the Supreme Court, and he thought that if he . . . that if he took a judicial position from . . . from Roosevelt, short of the Supreme Court, he would never get another opportunity. And so he said "no," and he . . . and he talked about being somewhat concerned as to whether or not he would ever be appointed. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. [inaudible] . . . BURKE: He would rather have been on the D.C. Circuit than not . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Right? BURKE: . . . on . . . on . . . on any court. He thought of that as his . . . as his ultimate goal while he was Solicitor General, at least. But he . . . he said he thought long and long and hard about how to s- . . . how to tell the president that he . . . that he did not want to accept that position. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that's hard. BURKE: And he . . . and he thought about whether or not to say he didn't want it because he wanted to be on the Supreme Court. And my recollection is that he did . . . he did not ever tell the president, in turning down the D.C. Circuit, that he was turning it down because he wanted to be available to go on the [chuckle] Supreme Court. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, that doesn't . . . that doesn't sound like the way he would do that, does it . . . to turn it down? BURKE: No. He's a gentle- . . . he's a perfect gentleman. [chuckle] Tha- . . . so that's what . . . I think about his career as really phenomenal, really phenomenal. I'd loved to have had his career. His accomplishments . . . BIRDWHISTELL: Or his contributions, I guess maybe is a . . . might be a . . . a fairer word, in a sense. BURKE: Well, yes. His . . . his . . . he certainly contributed to anything that he did. He . . . he . . . he was not, and nor will history ever say that he was, a brilliant justice of the Supreme Court. Nor will history say that he was a brilliant Solicitor General. History might say that he was a brilliant New Deal administrator of new government agencies, because he . . . he . . . you know, he . . . he was there at the front end of a couple of those in very . . . very important positions. But I think, nevertheless, history would . . . will say that he made a major contribution to both the . . . the Solicitor General's position. He argued . . . he probably argued more cases of real substantial import than any other Solicitor General before him or since him . . . since himself, in very try- . . . before varying . . . very trying Courts. [chuckle] BIRDWHISTELL: It wasn't the best situation to find . . . BURKE: Oh, . . . BIRDWHISTELL: . . . oneself in, [chuckling] was it? BURKE: . . . it certainly was not. It certainly was not. And then with respect to the Supreme Court, I think he will . . . again he will not . . . he will not be thought of as some of the outstanding legal thinkers or legal scholars, but he certainly will be thought of as being a steady, thoughtful, serious justice who was . . . who made every single effort possible to be fair in what he was deciding. You know, I think that's important. We've certainly had a lot of justices on that Court who . . . who . . . who have been more brilliant than this man and who have been less attentive to their duties. There's nobody who . . . who . . . there's nobody likely . . . there are probably others who were as equally as attentive, but no one was more attentive to their . . . to his job and the seriousness of that work than this man. I think that's important. It's important to the history of the Court. BIRDWHISTELL: That's [chuckling] right. That's right. Well, that's . . . that's all the questions I have. Is there anything you'd like to . . . to add that we haven't talked about? I think you've certainly given a . . . a good insight into the . . . into the man. BURKE: Well, I don't think of a . . . nothing particular comes to my mind, except that I will s- . . . I would like to say that he was very proud of the fact that one of his clerks became a . . . a very well thought-of judge, Harold Leventhal. He was very proud of that. Extremely proud of that. He would have loved to have seen one of his clerks become a . . . a justice of the Court before he died. BIRDWHISTELL: One gets the impression that he . . . he . . . you've talked about how he . . . well he treated the clerks while they were there. One gets the impression that he . . . he continued to . . . to feel close to all the clerks that he had with these annual dinners that were . . . annual dinners with all the clerks. BURKE: Yes. I actually . . . having moved [chuckle] three thousand miles [chuckle--Birdwhistell] away, I actually was . . . was much less involved in . . . in those activities. I only went probably four times after I left the Court. But it is clear, nevertheless, that he . . . he was fond of that . . . of that building institution behind him. He thought of it as kind of a . . . his guy . . . you know, his boys. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah, right. BURKE: He was proud of . . . of that somehow more . . . he was more proud of it than it deserved to be. But he's . . . but I can understand that, too. He was a relatively lonely man. He s- . . . he selected a lonely job [chuckle--Birdwhistell], and . . . and that's part of the family you build around you in that kind of job. The last time I went--and I cannot remember the year it was--but . . . but the last time I went, I decided I would . . . I would never go again, because he . . . he had started to become old enough so that he was . . . it . . . it was clear that he couldn't enjoy it, though, and I wanted to remember the way he enjoyed it previously. BIRDWHISTELL: Right. BURKE: He had a hard time dealing with the names, the memories. And it was . . . it seemed to me to be unwise for him to continue to have those, because it was going to tarnish it somehow. Certainly that last one tarnished it a little bit for me . . . us. Certainly it was unintended by him and . . . and everyone else, but he really did enjoy it so much, and suddenly it was a big . . . a big issue, a big effort later, you know. BIRDWHISTELL: Yeah. BURKE: A very nice man. BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I . . . I appreciate you taking all this time this afternoon to reflect back on that time in your life. BURKE: My pleasure, really. My pleasure. [End of Interview] Julian Burke clerked for Justice Reed from 1955 to 1956, along with Roderick Hills. He begins his interview by describing the duties of Reed's clerks, such as working on petitions of certiorari. He then compares Reed with fellow Justices William Douglas, Robert Jackson, Felix Frankfurter, Hugo Black, Thomas Clark, Sherman Minton, and Harold Burton. Next, he discusses the relationship between Reed and the other justices, including Chief Justice Earl Warren. Burke comments on Reed's writing style, political views, rice diet, social life, and interactions with his clerks. The cases he mentions during the interview include Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Shields v. Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Co., and Communist Party v. Subversive Activities Control Board. Kentucky Politics