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1985-10-31 Interview with Marcia A. Dake, October 31, 1985 1985OH237 UKMC 12 01:53:58 UKMC001 University of Kentucky Medical Center Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Dake, Marcia A., 1923- -- Interviews University of Kentucky. Medical Center -- History University of Kentucky. College of Nursing -- History University and Colleges -- Administration Nursing -- Study and teaching Marcia A. Dake; interviewee Richard C. Smoot; interviewer 1985OH237_UKMC12_Dake 1:|21(8)|31(10)|43(3)|58(10)|69(3)|84(7)|98(1)|109(2)|128(11)|142(7)|159(9)|192(4)|209(12)|239(5)|249(10)|256(11)|273(8)|286(6)|295(3)|313(9)|328(13)|342(11)|358(9)|379(7)|399(7)|411(7)|423(1)|433(4)|462(3)|480(4)|504(9)|517(12)|528(7)|541(7)|554(4)|572(2)|589(6)|602(3)|623(4)|644(10)|668(9)|679(1)|688(9)|702(6)|728(6)|753(3)|767(2)|787(4)|799(7)|814(7)|829(5)|840(4)|852(6)|864(8)|885(1)|905(6)|920(5)|944(3)|967(3)|992(3)|1012(10)|1017(13)|1032(11)|1054(8)|1072(12)|1091(7)|1097(9)|1107(10)|1125(8)|1141(6)|1160(12)|1169(7)|1178(5)|1192(10)|1203(4)|1218(8)|1242(2)|1260(2)|1276(2)|1299(10)|1318(1)|1330(8)|1341(13)|1358(12)|1372(6)|1391(1)|1410(5)|1425(8)|1434(13)|1451(9)|1468(12)|1488(3)|1495(6)|1506(1)|1516(3)|1533(2)|1561(2)|1578(11)|1591(1)|1603(10)|1626(4)|1640(3)|1663(6)|1675(6)|1700(2)|1718(4)|1743(6)|1756(9)|1772(3)|1782(1)|1801(9)|1817(1)|1830(1)|1849(7) audiotrans UKMCoh interview SMOOT: Dr. Dake, to begin, would you give me a brief autobiographical sketch of yourself? Let me know a little bit about you--where you--what your home life was like, your community, where you were born, your education and so forth. DAKE: Well, I was born in Western New York state--Chautauqua County-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and that's spelled C-H-A-U-T-A-U-Q-U-A-- SMOOT: Thank you (laughs). DAKE: --if you just want some help on the spelling. I'm the youngest of seven. I had one, uh, next older sibling who went to college, um, the rest did not. Uh, one brother was uh, in the first graduating class from the local high school. That's sort of the--the way the community- -others had--would have had to go about fifteen miles to go to a high school. I--in high school I worked with what in New York state was called school nurse teacher. It was a nurse employed by public schools for both, uh, clinical first aid type work and teaching health courses and I worked very closely, uh, with the nurse in high school and really from there decided I wanted to be a nurse and of course the only place to go was to the place that she had graduated from, uh, which was Crouse-Irving [Memorial] Hospital in Syracuse, New York. So I went there, um, I graduated in 1944 and if you put that with your other history you know that that was when our war was going on and at that point--at--at the time of graduation, new graduates either had to be classified as essential in a particular position or go into military. It was not a real draft, but it was a, uh, a--pretty much a forced entrance. I had heard that uh, nurses who were overweight had to go through certain, um, things--sign waivers and so on--and so I thought well, I'm overweight and I will not sign a waiver and--but we'll get this taken care of, so I didn't even tell my family that I was going to go for interview and physical and all of this kind of thing and then along about February comes this nice letter from Uncle Sam--or November maybe it was--please report to Fort Dix, New Jersey (Smoot laughs) on February fifth. So I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey and was in the military, uh--Army Nurse Corps--and went to, um, Hawaii and Japan for my main experience. Came back, got out of the military and was employed as a school nurse teacher in a public school in New York state where my sister and brother-in-law taught and so I jumped right into school nursing. I worked there for a couple of years and New York state had specific course requirements for certification as a school nurse teacher, not a degree, but specific course requirements, i.e. growth and development, i.e. public health, et cetera. So I went back to Syracuse University and got most of those credits and courses and as I finished the year I took a leave of absence and as I finished the year, um, of work I found out that I had not completed one course that was required. I've used that example many times with students since, because of course I blamed it on the faculty--it was all the faculty's responsibility, I didn't have any responsibility for that, you know (Smoot laughs) um--but--and I recall vividly a kind of--of, um adolescent attitude--well, I'll fix them, I'll go on and get a degree. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: And so I went on and got a degree (Smoot laughs). Um, with the fine financial assistance of Uncle Sam--with the GI Bill of Rights--as I finished my--my degree somehow I got the message that um, if you finished a degree that in order--if you had any GI Bill funds left over you had to cont--be continuous. In other words, you could--could not interrupt a program, um, unless you were in a seasonal occupation. School nursing was a seasonal occupation, but even if you interrupted for a seasonal occupation, you had to, um, indicate what your specific plan was--where you were going to go and what you were going to do with the rest of the money--then, before you interrupted. So, I had no idea what I was going to do, but then I went to, um, Ogdensburg, up on the Saint Lawrence river, to a public school and um, decided then that I wanted to use the rest of the money. Well, I had to go the next summer or I would--I would lose it and Teachers College Columbia was the only place that had, uh, a program that I thought I wanted which was bas- -basically health education. I really wanted to go to North Carolina Chapel Hill or to Michigan; however, New York state public schools run late into June and that's influenced by how many snow days they have to miss school. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: North Carolina is--like JMU [James Madison University], like Southern universities start their summer sessions fairly early and I couldn't get to one. So I went to Teachers College Columbia (Smoot laughs) and that's how I got started there. I did my master's in summer sessions, again, because I had a year long job and could still use GI, so actually my GI Bill of Rights, um, covered my expense through my master's degree; and then I moved to Oneonta, O-N-E-O-N-T-A-- SMOOT: Thank you. DAKE: --Oneonta (Smoot laughs) uh, State Teachers College and--and was college nurse there, both for health instruction and--and first aid care. Was there four years while I finished my master's. As I was finishing my master's I began to say, hey, what do I really want to do now? What do I really want to do? And I talked with several people at--at Teachers College and one of the nurse faculty members there--in talking to her--uh, realized that I had worked in public schools, I had worked in college, all my experience, really, was in education and her position was that, uh, what we needed in nursing education was people who knew something about education. We had enough people who knew about nursing, but we didn't have many people who knew about education and that's where I ought to start heading and to do that I ought to get a doctoral degree and so she, uh, assisted me and I put out feelers for funds and was extremely fortunate and re-received a fellowship from the National League for Nursing to do my doctoral work. I came along at the right time and the right place, with--you know. Um, so then I--I went back and--and finished my doctorate and I was just finishing--just--I had just, um, completed my dissertation--and I did it in a backwards kind of way--the--the nurse professor who had--who had worked with me on my master's and stimulated me was going on a sabattal--sabbatical the spring semester of the year I was to finish and she said, Oh, well, that's all right, um, so and so--Bernice-- will--will take you on and I said, no, I don't believe so. Why can't I finish the dissertation before you leave? Well, my dissertation was on what the State University of New York should be doing in baccalaureate nursing education. I don't know how far you've gotten along, but if you've really gotten into the history of the University of Kentucky Medical Center, you know that State University of New York, um, gave up two or three of their staff people to start the Medical Center at the University of Kentucky-- SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: --i.e. Dr. Willard, Dr. Bost, Dr. Straus, um, and the first statistician, who--who's name escapes me. SMOOT: Alan Ross. DAKE: Alan Ross--had come from State University of New York. Um, actually, Dr. Willard's office was in the building that I had done my bachelor's in public health nursing. Uh, so there was an interesting background there, but at any rate, I had just finished that dissertation and had--with encouragement of--of the faculty had made duplicate copies and taken it to the state health department, to the State University of New York and all sorts of places in Albany. Got back to New York City and had a message that was somebody there--or that one of the faculty--wanted to see me. Bob Straus was at Teachers College Columbia (laughs) and so I--went I went over to see her I had in my brief case a copy of the dissertation to take to my faculty member--or my faculty advisor. Well, I met Bob Straus and, you know, we got talking and he said, "Well, State Univer---" "Oooh, we'd be interested. You don't happen to have a--happen to have a copy, do you?" (laughs) Well, of course, you know--no--no, not much. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: So Bob Straus got a copy of my dissertation (laughs) you know, hot off the press. So, that was--um, actually at that point in time- -which was 1957, 58, there were really not many nurses who had doctoral degrees. Um, as a matter of fact, I was one of the first one hundred nurses known to have a doctoral degree in the country-- SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: --and I'm so young (Smoot laughs) Um, so I'm sure that--that, um, you know, there was not a--the kind of population to--to choose from that there would be today, but at any rate, we--um, I went for interview, we agreed on things and I came to Kentucky. SMOOT: What were they looking for in the interview--to come to Kentucky? DAKE: Mmm-- SMOOT: This was with Bob Straus-- DAKE: Oh, when I went to-- SMOOT: --among others? DAKE: --when--Bob Straus was the one whom I saw first. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: But then of course in Kentucky it was uh, Dr. Willard, Dr. Bost, uh, Alan-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --university people, the president, the dean of the college of letters and sciences and I don't recall who was there at the--I never- -I don't recall his name, but I recall him vividly. Um, he was getting near retirement and--and uh, he was something to deal with--a very interesting-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I don't recall specifically. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I--I suppose if I had to--to pull out, um, and--and guess, because that became what we were looking for in other people, it would be people who were--who were, um, looked on as being somewhat flexible-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --um, creative, people who wanted to see--we had a--we had a--a strong thrust in the--in the beginning stages, believing that we should bring the professions and the education of students for the professions more in harmony and closer together, i.e., uh, there should be--there should be built in a--a great level of mutual understanding, respect and learning together-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --between medical students, nursing students, dental students. Um, this was a fairly strong thrust in the beginning. We also had a fairly strong community thrust. The--(coughs) the--the stage was set--I think with--with Dr. Willard and his community orientation, um, there was a strong feeling that we--we needed not to be a--an ivory tower--ivory tower isolation, but that we needed to--to help students learn the community and health from the community as well as in the--in the uh, more critical care setting. SMOOT: Um-hm. Did they express to you then a--a philosophy that they were uh, moving towards, a certain aspect that they wanted to stress-- this interrelationship between the various disciplines and so forth? DAKE: This is what I would say now-- SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: --um, whether this was in the interview stage or whether it became what we were working for, I'd be hard to distinguish that at this point-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --but um, certainly in the very early stages, it was what we were trying to do-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and whether that was what they tried for in the interview, I-- I'd be hard put to reconstruct that. SMOOT: What were your first impressions of Dr. Willard? DAKE: (laughs) Well, as I--thinking about Kentucky has, you know, been going on a little bit in the last couple of days and I thought, you know, what--and the thing that--that um--that came to my mind was the evening--when I went for interview I went down by train, actually I'd ridden to some point, someplace, with somebody and then took a train in--(coughs) so I arrived at the then train station, uh, certainly after dark, I don't know how late, but it was a very, very foggy night--very foggy night--and I got off on the platform and--and started in one direction and I heard this voice behind me say something about was I lost or could--could he help me and then I looked up and here was--was, you know, six feet above me Dr. Willard. (both laugh) Um, Dr. Willard was--was certainly a very warm--a very warm person, um, a tremendous amount of leadership, a--a real grasp and a real dedication and commitment to--to excellence, um, to bringing--bringing all of the facets of the--of the center into a--a good working relationship, I mean I think he worked hard on that problem. He was--he was a--a community oriented--I mean he was a public health man. He was a community oriented physician and I think, um--I think some of the more critical care experts would have perceived him a little laid back. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, well, I think he was--I think he was, but I think that's-- that's the difference between a--a critical care--someone's who's good in (coughs) intensive care, critical care, surgery, et cetera, from one who is more public health oriented. My own baccalaureate degree was public health nursing. He and I got along fine. We--we pretty much saw eye to eye on where things ought to go. We couldn't bring them off. We couldn't get them, um, implemented. We had a lot of dreams that--just no way--no way. SMOOT: Hmm. What about the rest of team--your impressions of the original team that--constructed by Dr. Willard? DAKE: Well, Dr. Bost was, you know, way out and ahead of every--ahead of everyone. One of the--one of the giants--and intellectual giant-- really, could put a lot of pieces together and was a--was a visionary, uh, also. I think he--he complimented Dr. Willard very well. Um, if you take his--his brilliance and--and um--and perspective and the way he could bring things together and then bring the other kinds of skills--you had the real humanist in the--in the behavioral scientist in Bob Straus. Um, it was a very--very interesting dialogue--very interesting dialogue. SMOOT: Um-hm. Very much a-a different sort of team then. It reflected again, you would say, because of Dr. Willard's background in public health, uh, and uh, perhaps a social consciousness that was-- DAKE: Right--right. I think--I think that--that--that is--is why he saw, um, behavioral science as being an important early ingredient- -that whole orientation--as a--as an important early ingredient and I think it was. Uh, in addition to the fact that as individuals he--he brought people with whom he had worked and in whom he had trust, um, in whom he had confidence and they--they had that personal relationship in addition to their specific, uh, expertise and--and um, major areas, their orientation, so that he--he--I think he saw that there were some things that--that um, he could be complimented by their skills. He--I think he wanted--I believe he wanted to make a very real effort in--in creating as hi--high a level of humanizing element in medical education as he could accomplish. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I--I believe that--I believe that he felt there was some lack there, in--in what had been going on in medical education. That--now I may be way off the track, but I would--I would sen---I think some of the rest of us thought that. SMOOT: That was your impression at least? DAKE: I--I think so. Uh, I had never been really close to medical education before-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --um, but the--the desire to--to really--to humanize, to not make robots, to not make, um, the--the--to, to build scientists and physicians, or--or build that element in, but to keep that--keep that, um, humanitarian, uh, at a high--high level. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, I would--I think that probably goes along with the--with the whole community orientation. Um, it's all part of--or could be part of the same phenomenon. SMOOT: Um-hm. Speaking of community--Uh, I guess I should start with the smaller community--the university community--what were your impressions of the University of Kentucky itself when--when you arrived? DAKE: Well, you--um, that has to be tempered by um, a previous, um--I had had a friend who was from Danville, just south of--of Lexington, so that I was sort of oriented to the University of Kentucky. I was sort of oriented to Lexington. I had been there before. I had been to the racetrack. I--I, I had visited; it wasn't a--a completely foreign country to me-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and with her, um, havi---actually we had lived together at Oneonta, um, with her positive orientation to the university, I already had a positive--I mean, the University of Kentucky was positive to me. So even before I went there, um, it was not neutral. It already was over--over the--the hump there. Um, the people--of course the people in the Medical Center--um, and as you probably know, I was the seventh professional staff person appointed--uh, were people really from New York state, so that wasn't foreign. When we got into the other elements of the university, there was--there was uh, um--basically a high-level interest and a positive orientation on the part of the university toward developing the Medical Center. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I think that those relationships became strained, uh, as time went on and as--as certain kinds of phenomenon happened, uh, but I think there was a--there was a positive feeling and--and I was very happy there. I was--certainly--certainly the beginning days, it was challenging and these sorts of things. SMOOT: Hmm. And the Lexington community itself--did it seem receptive to the new team of medical educators coming in? DAKE: Well, it was kind of an interesting, and I--and I--I recalled and--and made this comment not long ago, just prior to the Medical Center nucleus staff coming to the university, IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] had built a plant and IBM had brought the core personnel from Poughkeepsie, New York. So that as we started developing the Medical Center and you'd be in a social occasion--of which we had many in those early (laughs) days-- SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: --and you'd meet somebody new and say I'm--oh, well, it's clear you're not from--from Kentucky, (Smoot laughs) where are you from and I'd say New York state and the response would be, oh, is your husband with IBM? SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, just automatically. It took--it took months before that began to wear off and you'd meet somebody and they'd say, oh, is you husband with IBM because IBM had just--just moved there--um, generally speaking, I was--I was comfortable and--and pleased with the community. SMOOT: Um-hm. Undoubtedly you were aware that there was some opposition-- DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --on campus to the development of medical school and certainly Medical Center and bringing in all this--all these people and spending all-- DAKE: All these high-priced people. SMOOT: --sure--spending all this money on a medical school. Did you run into any problems along those lines? DAKE: I never felt that much--I never felt that much. Um, my own, um, my own environment, let's say, um, was different. There was a--within the nursing community--both locally and at the state level--that of course was the first state supported baccalaureate nursing program--um, there was a positive orientation, but also a suspicious orientation. Um, you know, actually there were two hospital diploma programs in the community--Saint Joe and--and Good Sam--had--had hospital programs and while they were--they were receptive and open, it still was, you know, what are you going to--what kind of a program are you going to have? What kind of a graduate is your graduate going to be? Boy, we'll get them, you know, and we'll see whether you can do any better than we could--what we're doing and I--I've used this quote many, many times, I was scared--I have--people talk about working with--with um, reporters--news reporters--and as I got the baptism of fire very early in my life, um, there was an--an aggressive--known by everybody to be an aggressive reporter of the local paper and so he came to interview me not long after I was there. Well, the same sort of orientation, I mean, what--what's--how do you compare with the Good Sam school and, you know, what--what's going to be different and what's--what--what- -um, and so when he left, I just, you know, laid back and I--I said to people, I could just--I could tell you what the headline the next day was going to be--new dean says hospital schools must go--because any time you try to say something positive about baccalaureate education, many people automatically take everything as negative about anything else--any other kind of program. So--well, at any rate, I was saved--I was saved, the headline didn't--the message that came across is that we were going to develop our program and as a state institution, our responsibility would be to assist in any way possible to keep other programs as strong as they could be and that's the message that came across, but boy, oh boy (Smoot laughs)--generally speaking, uh, the nursing community was--was--was receptive and I think we got along pretty well. Um, they were extremely, um, curious to see what a nurse with a doctoral degree would be like. Had one--actually the director of nursing at one institution said, we've been talking about it--surely such a person must uh, have a cane, if--if not be in a wheelchair (Smoot laughs). I mean, the whole concept of nurses obtaining doctoral degrees was so foreign that to have somebody thirty-four years old or thirty-five years old have nursing and have a doctoral degree was just- -b--blew their mind. They couldn't--they couldn't imagine that. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: But they found I didn't have two heads and I was human and--and I did have something to contribute and so we got along fine. SMOOT: Hmm. This whole team was generally was--was very young, wasn't it? The-- DAKE: Yes. SMOOT: --all early mid thirties as they were coming in. DAKE: The year after--the year after I was appointed, um, Al Morris was appointed dean of dentistry and I recall vividly the newspaper, um, indicating that he was thirty-four years old and I thought, thirty-four years old, my lord, that's young and I want--went on a minute and I thought, oh, that's a year younger than you were (Smoot laughs) last year when you came. So yes, it was a young team. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: A young team. SMOOT: Did you see advantages to that? DAKE: I don't think (laughs) an older team could have stood the pace. The pace was--was absolutely um, phenomenal. The other person that we didn't mention was--was the physician, um, the internist, who actually was sort of acting dean for a while. Oh, dear lord, well, he was one of the--one of the early team. It--it may come to me. [Pause in recording.] DAKE: Okay, I guess what um--what reminded me of--of Dick [Richardson Noback] when I was talking about the pace-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --I recall vividly one Palm Sunday morning sitting at Dick Noback's house discussing what the mural on the front of the building should consist of, what message that mural should give and I'm not kidding. I mean, that was the only time we could get to do some of those kinds of planning and thinking-- SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: --strategizing, so that it was--it was a seven day a week, how many ever hours a day and night-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --uh, kind of thing because in addition to all of the--the specific planning, there was the recruiting and I um--I maintain it was--again, it comes up very often where I'm doing this and I say, I learned it young. Uh, we had so many people to bring in, um, for employment and recruitment, interviewing and the schedules were--were pretty hectic and I said, you know, I didn't want anybody else take any of my time and I had to be sure I didn't take any of anybody else's time. So you really got so you--you had to watch the clock to keep-- SMOOT: Umm. DAKE: --interview process moving. Uh, so I'm a clock watcher now (Smoot laughs). SMOOT: Could you give me a little bit of detail on--on this planning, the strategy and recruitment process from your own perspective, what-- what you were having to do and--in terms of planning and development and so forth? DAKE: Well, um, I'm sure there are a number of things I didn't do well, but there were some I did do well, um, and one of the things that I did was to decide that I was a newcomer to--to nursing education. While I had sat in the classroom at Teachers College Columbia and I had read the books and the theory and so on, uh, I was totally foreign to it. I had been a student of different programs, but not the kind of program that I was about to start. So I got myself around the country and (laughs) I--I recall being taken by the then dean of the University of Minnesota School of Nursing, who was nearing retirement, and you had the two ends of the age continuing. I was, as referred to by another, uh, dean of nursing who was nearing retiring, the young upstart who went to Kentucky (Smoot laughs) and--but at any rate, I got myself around the country to some key places and I recall, for example, um, Dean Mary Kelly Mullane, who at that time was at the University of Chicago, is now retired, but I've--I've, you know, known her all these years, who said to me, you're going to have one kind of problem in recruiting. You're going to have a problem bringing young, single women into that community. You don't have enough to offer young, single women to bring them into that community. You may as well recognize that right now, you're going to have that problem and, you know, never forget it. It is--it was--and we're not talking about here [Harrisonburg, VA], but it is a kind of a problem here too. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, there's not that much, but--so that was one of the things that the more--and I--and I saw to it that I got to meetings--to national meetings--and I saw to it that people knew who I was. I spoke, I got myself to the microphone and I s--identified so that people would begin to recognize when they got information, um, they got uh, ads for positions, they knew who the dean was and that is still an effective approach. I never would have been successful here if people had not known who Marcia Dake is. No question about it. So far as--as um, curriculum is concerned--and I recall, um, in the beginning Dr. Willard was--and--and some of the other staff were very, very sure that we should start the College of Nursing, we should admit students before anybody else did. I mean, after all where are we going to get the nurses to staff the hospital if our nursing school isn't up and going. I mean, I went there in '58 and there was a very strong feeling that we should admit nursing students, we should have faculty, admit nursing students by 1959. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: I knew we should not, but it took me a long time to find the kind of message that satisfied my colleagues that we should not and the basic clue--the basic clue to that was that if we started in 1959, we would have at least one and maybe two graduating classes who had never seen the inside of the university hospital; and they would be not good recruits anyway. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: If we waited and started with the rest in 1960, we would then have some opportunity to involve nursing students in the excitement of the Medical Center and the university hospital which ought to pay more rewards and once I--once I got that uh, message, uh, then I didn't have any problem. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: But uh it--the first message was that kind of naivete, uh, quite simply. SMOOT: What other sorts of things--we were you trying to do other sorts of innovative things in your curriculum or in--in the program, the structure? DAKE: Well, there--a couple of things, um, you rem---I mentioned earlier that--that um, this was the first state supported baccalaureate program in this--in the state. Actually there were two other baccalaureate programs. Uh, Berea College had a nursing program and uh, I've forgotten what the name was at that point 'cause it changed a couple of times--Nazareth College--in Louisville. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, it was something else--I don't know whether that was--that was one of its names, let's put it that way. They had had the baccalaureate program, uh, and I don't recall the number of years, what I recall is that when I went there those two schools together had not yet graduated a hundred graduates. So that, um, there really had been no resource of baccalaureate graduates in the commonwealth and feeling the need to involve nurses and get nurses acquainted with the university and with--with nursing education, we initiated a continuing education program. We--the College of Nursing there was the first program in the entire southern region--board--southern region to have a full-time director of continuing education-- SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: --and we--we developed, um, a--a variety of programs. We had a monthly lecture series where we brought national people in--the president of the American Nurses Association--uh, all sorts of--of national leaders to, uh--to uplift, to feed the hunger that these nurses really had and they had a hunger for knowledge. It had not been there. There were diploma schools. Um, some few people had gone into general education programs in--in universities, uh, but not too many-- not too many and the--we had people come from all over the state. We'd have a hundred people come to an evening continuing education program. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: Um, and that's a--it's a fair piece to--to Paducah. SMOOT: Yes, it is. DAKE: Okay? SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: But they came from Paducah and they came from Morehead and they- -and they came from, uh, Ashland to continuing education programs. The other thing we did and we started quite early--as a matter of fact, we graduated four registered nurses with a baccalaureate degree before we graduated our first class of generic students. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: That is very, very unusual. I don't know that it's particularly wise, but we did it. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: A matter of fact, I had a letter from one of them, um, about a year ago. She saw--she saw an ad, um, from here--from JMU and got the address and wrote to me. She was one of those first R.N.s and I had helped her, uh, get into a place to get her master's and she now has a second master's and now has a doctorate. SMOOT: Ahh. DAKE: That's a reward. I--I don't--I know of only one--I know personally of only one generic graduate, um, who received a doctorate and she was one in the first class. She's now assistant vice-president at uh, Rush Presbyterian Medical Center. Those are--those are the uh, strokes. Uh, I don't whether that--I may have gotten off, so I--you may need to bring me back to the question. SMOOT: No, I think that's--that was covering the question very well. Um, tell me a little bit about the original team in the College of Nursing--your own staff and people that you recruited. [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: Talking about the original team in your office--the College of Nursing-- DAKE: Okay. Um, one of the original team--do you want me to sp---names or-- SMOOT: Sure, please. DAKE: Yeah, okay. SMOOT: Please. DAKE: Virginia Lane came from um, Galveston, Texas and she really made a--a tremendous con--contribution. She was a--a very conceptual thinker. Um, give her an opportunity and she'd sort of lay out the broad parameters of--of a problem or otherwise. Her area was maternity nursing and she was--um, at that point, really um, well recognized in--in the country. She was not--uh, she did not have a doctoral degree. As a matter of fact, um, I was never successful in getting persons with doctoral degrees, um, for clinical teaching faculty. That goes back to the point that there weren't that many. We're talking about a long time ago in relation to nursing. When you think now, twenty-five years later, that only about 24 percent of all nursing--in baccalaureate and higher degree programs in nursing--have doctoral degrees, you know that back twenty-five years ago there were not--there were not many who had doctoral degrees. The first assistant dean who came, I think, about two years after we started, um, was Dr. May Sanders, who had just finished her doctoral degree at Teachers College, uh, had been in nursing education a--a good while and brought a, a lot of curriculum expertise. Um, my own area was not curriculum and I'm not good with nuts--nuts and bolts, wasn't then, am not now, but, um-- so that she came in and--and provided a good bit of leadership. We had- -uh, well, Marion Poole was one of the early community health--at one point in time, fairly early, I had four faculty out of a fairly small number who had major interest in community health and I recall vividly Jesse Scott, who was, uh, assistant, um--no--not attorney general, but assistant in the--she was director of the division of nursing public health service-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --who came and said, good heavens! You've got four people with community health orientation. Um, we did have and we--we needed that--we needed that very much. Uh, Kurt Deuschle was the first chairman of community health and we tried very, very hard to, uh, fill our goal and--and if we couldn't do it in the hospital, do it in community health and have--have, uh, students learn together. We never pulled that off, um, in part because of schedules, in part because of different levels and I need to go get the coffee. [Pause in recording.] DAKE: We were talking, um, about community health and--and Kurt Deuschle, I--I was reminded that one of the problems in um, really doing the kind of joint, uh, education that we wanted was that medical students were exclusively medical students, i.e. they had no other schedule-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and it was possible then to schedule, um, medical students out into a community a week at a time, SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: And they did that. Our students were university and College of Nursing students and taking nursing courses and non-nursing courses and it was not possible to schedule them out in a community a week at a time. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: The--and--and which just--it was one of the--the technical things that got in the way of our doing what we wa--want--(coughs)--wanted to do-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: (coughs)--and--and hoped to do to really see the--the physician role and the nurse role and have the--have the students develop them together-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and--and learn what each other was, uh, capable of doing, but we didn't pull that off very well. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: Never pulled it off very well, I think. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: Um, we had, um--we were talking about nursing faculty and um, Jane Kennedy was a very dynamic and a very--very important early faculty member. Jane was--um, I--I don't know if you could call her brilliant, but certainly a very intellectual, very capable young lady, a very--um, a very--a very extrovert, fast thinker, fast talker. We used to almost have to put the brakes on and say, hey, let--let the rest of us catch up, you know, you're--you're--you're out and communication--words--were so important as you brought somebody from Texas and somebody from Philadelphia and, and somebody from Kentucky and somebody from New York state and--and Illinois together, (coughs) the common phrases--um, colloquial, um, things--were--just got in our way many times. You really had to say, now, what do you really mean by that and uh, a Texas definition was not necessarily a Philadelphia desin--definition, but those were the fun times and we just had to be sure that--that uh, we made sure we knew what people were talking about. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: But um--those are kind of the--oh, the--the early ones. There's probably somebody I've missed in that early group. I haven't thought of them, you know, recently or had contact. Uh, so that--that's kind of what comes to mind right off hand. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: There were some others I'm sure. SMOOT: What about the other innovations in--in the development of programs. Uh, there was an associate degree program set up at the community colleges, is that correct? DAKE: Right. I--I would be, um, hard put to--to come with the exact date, but, um, at that time the wa---the early stages there were in- state two-year centers and they were called centers. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: It was the Northern center, it was the, uh, Northwest center and it was Paducah center and so on and at--when they were known as centers and before the community college system was formalized, all education in those centers was administered by that discipline on the main campus. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Meaning history was the--the uh, people who taught history were employed, uh, by the history department. Uh, their assignments, what was taught was--was approved by the discipline on the main campus. That was an era when nationally associate degree nursing programs were beginning to--to be developed more extensively and we envisioned that those centers--and it was projected that they would come--become full two-year colleges--we envisioned that those centers with the liaison to the, uh, College of Nursing, should develop associate degree programs. So I prepared, uh, a grant proposal and we had some two-hundred and fifty thousand dollars from Kellogg to assist in the activation of--of um, associate degree programs and again, I recall that the head of the--nursing in Kellogg said, well, they had been thinking about um, supporting some development in the Midwest. I thought, mmm, fine, we don't mind, we're not--we don't really care whether we're South or Midwest or whatever (Smoot laughs), uh, I mean, you can call us Midwest, we won't argue at all. So we got two-hundred and fifty thousand dollars. SMOOT: Sounds like a fair deal (laughs). DAKE: And it was then that--that um, Marie Piekarski, who is still there, um, I brought her in to coordinate and I brought her from Florida-- SMOOT: Um-hm-- DAKE: --to--she was actually a member of the College of Nursing faculty, uh, with her assignment to develop and assist in coordination of development of the associate degree programs and again, at that point in time, we did all the interviewing, and of course when we got the project monies, as director I--I still had the control over, um, the hiring of directors and the hiring of faculty and--and all of that, even after the community college system itself got started and I think we--you know, we had to do state survey and--and these kinds of things and--and I did a lot of--of community work--um, getting out into the communities--meeting--having meetings out there and testing the water for the development of a program, but by the time I--I left, I think we had seven associate degree programs, and then-- SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: --and then began to move into development of master's, um, program. Had a terrible time with the graduate school faculty. I have said on many occasions that the then dean of the graduate school was a fine, Southern gentleman and all that goes with that in relation to females (Smoot laughs). I think there probably has never been a man with whom I've needed to associate professionally who has had greater problem in dealing with professional women than that person did. Um, simply couldn't--couldn't fathom--could not, um, cope with--uh, and we had a real problem. We had no faculty members with doctoral degrees and the university faculty--graduate school faculty--was at that point a very tried and true, staid, uh, graduate school faculty and it--uh, they just could not--they could not, uh, deal easily with developing a master's program without grad---without doctoral prepared faculty. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: So we had a lot of hurdles to go over. We had a lot of hurdles to develop the associate degree program in the--in the university faculty. That faculty was not at all certain that, um, there should be such a thing as an associate degree granted by the university. I don't recall exactly how long it took us to get that through and get it approved for an associate degree. When--when the--when the community college system was really broken off as a whole sort of separate autonomous body, that- -you know, all those kinds of things came up in the university comm.-- community college faculty, but prior to that they all had to be approved by the university faculty and um, I recall many a--many a session with that faculty before we got that approved to--to go on with it. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: It was a struggle. My--my own role, um, came more and more to be, uh, heavy emphasis external--the state professional, community college, um, work on the master's, the university--um, and so we had to have good curriculum leadership internal and I think brought in as assistant deans, people who had special curriculum, um, emphasis. SMOOT: Um-hm. How did you find yourself received in the state at large in what you were trying to do as--as--in this external function? DAKE: I always felt very positive about it. Uh, I always felt that um--that I was really quite successful in--in that element. SMOOT: Um-hm. I suppose you had been breaking in some new ground on the statewide level as well. DAKE: Oh, yes--oh, yes. SMOOT: Could you tell me a little bit about the types of things that you were trying to do and that you achieved while you were working on the statewide level in this external function for the College of Nursing? DAKE: Well, I think we gained better understanding and promoted baccalaureate education. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I--e--even though I was--am a graduate of a hospital school of nursing, I--long time ago, uh, believed that students who were preparing for nursing should do it in the college setting and we--we, I think, made a lot of good progress in the state, in promoting baccalaureate education and in--in really helping hospitals to stop their diploma programs. Um, I would say--I mean statistics would have to be gathered, but I would say that--that Kentucky, uh, closed its hospital schools about as rapidly as any state in the country. SMOOT: Is that so? DAKE: Right. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: Um, and moved toward associate and baccalaureate education and I am willing to take some credit for contributing to that. Um, I think that it--it um--the kinds of things that could be done within the--the state organizations, the kinds of things that could be done within the state Board of Nursing, which is the legal licensing body--the body that controls nursing education in every state. I was, um, on that and--and became president and was per--president for two terms of the state Board of Nursing. Through regulations we were able to upgrade faculty, uh, upgrade the requirements for faculty preparation in any school of nursing, um, and--and upgrade nursing education through those kinds of efforts and I think that--that um--that was a very, you know, a very real role there. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I--I would say those are probably--I think promoting continued learning, promoting continuing in education both in the--in the college and university and in the state. Uh, the state nursing organizations began to promote more opportunities for continued learning. SMOOT: Um-hm. Would it be fair if I characterize this external function that you--that you dealt with really as--as a--as a political sort of, uh, function that you--that you were performing? DAKE: I expect it might be fair. I've always said, I am not a political animal. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, and when I say that, I mean I don't--uh, I don't function real well in the formal political process. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Uh, I suspect it would be accurate that I am a--in fact a, uh, political animal, that by strategizing, by--by the way I maneuver, by the way I--I uh, function-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --that yes--yes. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: Professional politicking. SMOOT: Okay. Um, and I ask this question to lead into the po--political scene in general in Kentucky. Uh, were you made familiar with the political situation leading up to the development of the University Medical School and Medical Center, uh, prior to your coming? DAKE: Articles about whether we'd burn coal and articles about the University of Louisville and--yes-- SMOOT: Right. DAKE: --yes--yes. SMOOT: Okay--okay, did--what were your impressions of this? Was this something that--that you uh, thought well, this is, uh, to be expected or this is kind of peculiar? Uh. DAKE: Um, I th---it's--it's a little hard to reconstruct that, but I think I felt that applied to the College of Medicine, didn't apply to the College of Nursing. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: I really think it did--I really think it did. Um, and then came to be also with the College of Dentistry. See, there were no counterparts in nursing and so that in--in a large sense, uh, all of that political phenomenon did not apply to the College of Nursing. SMOOT: Um-hm. Did you find they gave you a great deal more leeway than some of the uh, other deans in the Medical Center? DAKE: Oh, I don't think there's any question about it. Uh, it not only gave me leeway, but it didn't um--I didn't have that--I didn't have that burden to bear. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: There was no University of Louisville, at that time, in my profession. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I was certainly very conscious of that whole phenomenon, because it impacted on my institution and it impacted on my colleagues and--and this sort of thing. So I was sensitive to it and had always to be sensitive to it, because even--even in my circles--in nursing circles--there were many--there were many more nurses with whom I dealt who were from Louisville, who would tend to lean toward the Louisville political, uh, position and so you know, I had--I was sensitive to it, but it--it--it never impacted on me-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --the way it did the other professions. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: It--I--I feel that that's very clear. SMOOT: How do you think Dr. Willard dealt with the situation, from your own perspective? Did--were you, uh, made aware of what he was having to do and how he was dealing with certain problems on a statewide level? DAKE: Oh, I think so. I think by and large, um, he wanted the right thing done. He wanted to find out what the right thing was to be done and so he and Howard Bost, in particular, I would say, um, exerted a tremendous amount of effort to bring a--a peaceful, if it needed to be compromise, compromise to bring a peaceful, uh, reliable, uh, workable solution for the welfare of the citizens of the state. You know, um, that's about--that's about what I would say about that I think. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I'm sure because of--of where I sat, even though, you know, I was in on lots of conversations, Um, I've always tried not to--to jump on positions with only partial information, and so if I felt there were things that I didn't personally experience or didn't feel, um, I didn't have to in most cases be other than a re--recipient of information. I didn't have to (coughs) take positions, um, in lots of ways and so I tried not to. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, you need--I think one needs to be careful unless one is walking in the shoes. You--you know what I mean? SMOOT: Yes, I do. DAKE: Okay. SMOOT: Um, had you ever had occasion to meet with uh, Governor Chandler? DAKE: Oh, yes. SMOOT: What were your impressions-- DAKE: Happy? SMOOT: --(laughs)--yes, what were your impressions of Happy Chandler? DAKE: Well, Happy was one of those people who had done a lot--um, I--I think probably no question had done a lot of good things when he had been governor. Um, I don't know how to describe him as a politician. I--I, you know, I don't--I don't deal enough--but he's certainly a hometown, homespun--uh, uh, was--kind of guy. Um, he wanted--he wanted that Medical Center, no ifs, ands or buts. SMOOT: Why? Why do you think he wanted that Medical Center there? DAKE: Well, I--I think he wanted to do good things for the state and I think he felt that--that, um--the University of Louisville was--was at that time not a state institution, it was an urban institution. Uh, Lexington and the University of Kentucky was much more rural oriented. It had the--the College of Agriculture. It--I can believe that he saw it as being closer to the people of the earth. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: And I've never said that before and I don't know how come it came out that way (Smoot laughs), But, but I think that's, you know-- SMOOT: Yeah, yeah. DAKE: --I think that's maybe what he saw and he wanted something big for the people that he could put his hand and name on and his money into. SMOOT: Um-hm. So you don't see any ult--ulterior motive on his part-- just as a pure political move--this was something that he really seemed to believe in, uh--at least from your perspective? DAKE: From this--from this vantage point, if I ever knew, you know, otherwise I don't know it today. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: Mellowed, you know, with age (both laugh). SMOOT: What was your impression of the relationship between the university administration--President Dickey to begin with and--and others--with the Medical Center administration? DAKE: I don't think the first one ever knew what hit him--uh, don't quote me on that (Smoot laughs). I don't--I don't think anybody ever imagined the--the monstrosity that was being moved into that setting. I don't think anybody in there, you know, had an inkling of the complexities that they were getting into, um, the magnitude of the complexities--nobody, nobody. I don't even know for sure if Dr. Willard knew. I don't know for certain that he realized the full complexity of a university hospital, the um, various disciplines-- colleges--and--and all that that would be involved. He may have, I mean, I don't want to discredit him for that, but I don't think anybody could imagine how trying to--trying to develop, you know, you--you can--I have a friend who says that I sometimes swallow an elephant and choke on a gnat. Well, I would compare this development at JMU as a gnat in comparison to that development at U.K. and I mean to tell you, the administration of this university had no idea of even what a small operation of a College of Nursing would involved--would involve--had no idea. So, you know, if you--if you compare a gnat with an elephant (laughs) I dealing--I'm dean of a gnat now and--and uh. SMOOT: Hmm. Do you think though, that um--well, did Dr. Dickey approach the--the thing in--in the right way, at least from what he co---how he could? I suppose any college president is going to be limited. You have a certain number of options available to you. How do you deal with this new development? Uh, how are you going to have the relationship set up? Uh, what is the foundation going to be? Uh, do you think, uh, in terms of where he was coming from, what he was trying to do, uh, and what the Medical Center was trying to do, that the relationship was uh, a good one--or it could have been better? Uh, I mean this--this is a purely a judgment call-- DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --I know, but just curious as to your own perspective on that because it's uh, an interesting relationship, I think. DAKE: I'm not certain that I'm in a real good position to comment on that. SMOOT: Okay. But let me ask you a question--a similar question, differently put. What do you think the relationship ought to be between a university administration and a Medical Center administration? DAKE: I--I'm really going to hedge because I don't think I know the answer to that either, um-- SMOOT: Okay DAKE: --and I've been--I've been away from it long enough that I can only--I, you know (laughs) I can only say that I would never go into one of those kind of settings again--never. I am--I'm--it is much too complex. It is much more difficult to develop quality, even in a nursing program than it is here--much easier--much easier to develop the qu--quality. We don't have the complexity--we don't have the complexity, but, you know, back to your question, I--I really don't think I'm in a good position to--to even comment on--comment on that now, because I've been in a much more simple structure for long enough to be--to be comfortable with that; um. SMOOT: All right. DAKE: Sorry about that. SMOOT: Oh, (both laugh) that's all right. Um, did you get along well with all the other deans in the col---in the Medical Center as far as uh, working relationships were concerned, uh, any difficulties there? DAKE: I would say by and large the answer to that is yes. SMOOT: Okay. DAKE: Um, it would be wrong to say that that was universally yes, um, either in point of--point of time or in point of--of um, individuals. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: The--the reason that I would never go back to a situation like that and--is that the College of Medicine and particular parts, or individuals in the College of Medicine apparently were schooled in the thought that they had all of the answers about what nursing education should be like and some parts--some individuals, unfortunately too many--had the feeling that they should do more of the instruction in the College of Nursing, so that there were on certainly occasions, times when the dean of medicine in supporting his faculty or department heads would attempt to influence in a way that was neither comfortable, nor tolerable and in ways that on certainly some occasions, strained relationships. SMOOT: Um-hm. Would you attribute this sort of thing to um, a general complex held by physicians, uh, towards nurses--yes? DAKE: I think there's no--no question that, um, there--there are-- fortunately this is not a universal--okay? But there are settings and there are types of--of individuals in the medical profession with, um--who have been brought up on--from the old school of--a physician authority, uh, nurse subordinate, uh, as contrasted with any level of collegial, professional relationship. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: And there are times when that strains, um, working relationships-- no question about it. SMOOT: Um-hm. Of course they were trying to do something different there, uh, at U.K. that time--to implant a--a more socially conscious, uh, background within the physicians. Uh, did you find that this was carrying over towards nurses? DAKE: I didn't find it was being implemented very successfully. I think the goal was excellent, but I don't believe there were very many who would really, um, take the position that they were very successful in meeting that goal. I don't believe Bob Straus would even--he might have to be careful where he said it--but I th--I don't think that he would believe that they went very far down the road in the--in that kind of--of um, collegial, professional uh, team um, and--and were very successful in that. SMOOT: Um-hm. Was this because of the, um, traditional background of many of the members of the faculty? Uh, was this because of some, uh, weakness within the curriculum, the approach that they were taking to uh, instill some sort of a more humanistic ideal within, uh, young physicians? DAKE: I think probably the answer to that question is very complex and complicated. It is not a single faceted answer. SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: Um, it involves all--all parties. It involves students as well as faculty because students who come to any program come to that program with a mindset. Uh, they come with a--with a frame of reference and it's not always easy to change that frame of reference. I don't care whether we're talking about nursing students or medical students or physical therapy or anything. So that I really think the answer to that is um--is extremely complex and--and I wouldn't know how to answer it in a two day interview. SMOOT: In a two day interview. DAKE: I wouldn't. SMOOT: Hmm. Was this the major problem that you faced while you were at the university? DAKE: I think probably. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I think probably. SMOOT: Um-hm. Did you find from--you--of course you'd gone all around the country and talked with other deans--did they have the same problem? DAKE: Complexities in--in um--in that type of setting-- SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: --were fairly similar. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: There are--there were at that time not too many institutions that had that same, um, overall organization-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --a total Medical Center in a university with total university owned hospital, university owned medical, dental, nursing--I mean that's why it was--it was such an opportunity because there weren't many where there was one person at the head of this whole complex. Relationships between institutions and hospitals were usually--were more often uh, separate, you know, wasn't the--hospital--relationships between colleges of medicine and hospitals I would guess have been fairly similar, but there were not too many institutions, and I'm not quite sure even now how many institutions, have that--that same total, um, administrative structure. SMOOT: Um-hm. Did you find as--as time progressed, while you were at the University of Kentucky, that these problems grew worse, grew better, uh, stayed the same? Um, here were changes in personnel. DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: Uh, were there changes in mind set to the positive side or the negative side? Uh, how did you see that the overall flow of things in relationship from where you were to the whole? DAKE: Well, of course before I left there was a change in the university adm---president and a change in the vice-president for the Medical Center-- SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: --both. SMOOT: Perhaps we should stop just a moment. [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: Before we broke for lunch, Dr. Dake, we were talking a little bit about the administration of the University Medical Center and I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more, before we move on to something else, about that administration? Changes were taking place within the Medical Center administration, within the various department heads, deans and so forth and there had been some problems that we have already discussed, earlier. Were the changes that were taking place of a positive nature? Were they--were they, uh, improvements or were they more negative, uh, in relationship to the whole structure of the university and the administration of the Medical Center in particular? DAKE: Um, in nursing there is a film, the label of which, "In the Eye of the Beholder." SMOOT: Yes. DAKE: Okay? SMOOT: Right. DAKE: Um, my response would be (laughs) that that would be in the eye of the beholder. SMOOT: Right. DAKE: Um, I think that the--I think that's a difficult question to--to reflect on. Um, there were--I think this--there were pressures, there were stresses in many corners as, you know, wh---before I left there, um, and right now I'm--I'm so far away from them that I--I can't (laughs) even-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --identify what they--what they all were; um, but it was--there, I'm sure--I'm sure stresses in the growth--in the growth of--of um--of all the academic units, stresses in the--in the um, in the hospital, the hospital fitting in--and I think another--I think another phenomenon that was probably happening--um, we mentioned early the--the age of people when the Medical Center started and I suspect that a very significant phenomenon was that there were many of us who because of our youth at the time we went there, had spent a--a significant time span in that setting-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and it then became time in our professional careers to move to other horizons um, and I--I think that happened to--to several people. Some of the significant changes--um, the hospital administrator had a--a--a tremendous impact on the whole center to start with new administration--new administration in nursing service, new administration in the hospital administration--it disrupted the even flow that had gone on and everyone was still in a--in a growth pattern- -a growth trend. Um, we had just started the--the master's program. All--all sorts of things were still growing and yet the smoothness of that growth, I believe was then interrupted by this kind of phenomenon and I really think that there was--there was--um, an important element of that phenomenon was that--that individual growth pattern, okay? SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: There--there have been--uh, you don't hear of it--I don't hear of it as much recently, but--what is a normal, uh, stay pattern for growth purposes and it varies in terms of the--of the um--the level of position, the kind of position, the--a--a lot of things, but I expect that was going on. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: But I don't there's any question, but what some of the significant changes were disruption to um--to morale, to, um, productivity, to--to a lot of things that impacted on every corner of--of the university and Medical Center. SMOOT: Um-hm. In the beginning, as part of the philosophy and goals of the original team of administrators--they have talked about, again we've touched on the social consciousness, uh, instilling a more humanitarian point of view among physicians. Did you find that--and of course you mentioned that there was never really a great deal of success at this, but there was at least an attempt made. Did you find that the attempt grew less uh, strong, uh, as personnel changed? DAKE: I don't think there's any quest---any--I don't--I don't believe there's any question to that. Um, that kind of sensitivity-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --decreased. I--I think that was very, you know, probably the logical--probably not to be avoided. SMOOT: Um-hm. In other words then, would you say that the institution was becoming more traditional as institutions like medical centers, colleges of medicine and dentistry, et cetera, getting norm? DAKE: I would s---I would suspect so. Um, for example, in the College of Nursing--uh, as an example--we had the opportunity and took the opportunity to be--be creative in terms of baccalaureate nursing curriculum. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: And the curriculum was creative. Um, I think that--that it--it was moving somewhat toward more traditional and--and it seems very clear that--that after I left it moved e--even more traditional-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --was the message I got, I have not, uh, kept that close, but because baccalaureate nursing education was in--um, we were in the early stages of what we call generic baccalaureate education, i.e. um, bringing students into uh, a pre-nursing and--and completely collegiate program as contrasted with adding "Liberal Studies" quote, unquote, uh, on top of a hospital diploma program-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --which it what--which was what had taken place up to that time-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --in the--in the whole history and evolution of nursing education, but um, we--we were known to have uh, a creative curriculum in nursing education in the beginning-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --but I think your point, yes, is--is right. Some of those earlier, um, pie in the sky, um, dreams of what we could do because of the opportunity of starting and growing together sort of fell through the cracks. SMOOT: There was also a change in the um, presidency at the university. Um, Frank Dickey stepped down and Jack Oswald came in to serve as president of the university for several years. How would you evaluate the changes that took place under President Oswald? Uh, I suppose that some--some comparison would have to come into play with Dr. Dickey who had preceded him, but what changes did you notice within the university? DAKE: I think that--that much more structure was put in place and I suppose--I suppose, um, it would be possible for some people to call that bureaucracy. Um, I would--that's not the way I'd--I'd look at it, I think there were many areas in--in Dr. Dickey's, uh, regime where structure was lacking and that allowed--that allowed the balloon to balloon out or be pushed in, uh--whatever--and--and structure was put in place I believe under--under Dr. Oswald and I think what I said a minute ago, I think Dr. Oswald came in and, um, really set up a structure within the total university and believed that he had done what he could do there and then moved on. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Because he then would be in that kind of position that you talk about, that either he decides he's going to stay there forever--going to try to stay there forever--uh, or he's going to move on and--and grow in a different way than he had been able to grow in that situation. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, and so I would--I'm sure that there were--even though I was--was, you know, in central administration of the Medical Center, I'm sure there were many of the relationship type problems and the dealing with structure from the standpoint of the College of Medicine, the standpoint of the hospital that um, I wouldn't--would not have been integral enough to--to have them stay with me as significant phenomenon. You know, I knew they were going on--things were going on--but um, other peop---they were on other people's responsibilities and not mine, and therefore a good bit of what might, you know, what- -the feelings, the thoughts and so on were not my--I didn't have to be responsible for them, so I don't--I wasn't, um--they were not impacting on me. They were--they were--were my functions the way they were on some other people. SMOOT: Um-hm. You were also there when uh, Dr. Singletary took over, were you not? DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: Did you notice even more changes still? DAKE: Well, you have to--you have to realize that when Dr. Singletary- -it was--the change in central university and the change in Medical Center administration were very close. I--I don't know exactly how close, but my--my memory would say they were quite close and so from where I would sit, um, it would have been more difficult to, uh--to identify the impact of one over the other-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --because they were both, uh, pretty close; I don't know--a year or so apart. SMOOT: I think s---I think that's right. Could you compare the change in the Medical Center administration from Dr. Willard to Dr. Bosomworth? DAKE: Well, you have to--you have to realize that I'd worked with Dr. Willard for thirteen years. SMOOT: Certainly. DAKE: Twelve years--whatever. Um, I don't--I don't know that I could describe the impact of that change Medical Center, university wide, um, and--and it was at a time when I was at that point of, hey, um, I have been the only voice, the only face, the only name in really baccalaureate and higher education in--in--in the state--at that point- -and I knew very well it was getting time to change that. Um, I'd gone as far as--as I felt I could go and that it was beginning to be old hat in the state--not that I--not that I identified any--any um--any negative kind of thing--but just logically, a new face, a new name can say the same thing and it's--it--it's a new--it's--it's hearing, it sharpens, people--peoples' eyes and peoples' ears and peoples' minds open up to--to something new and so it was time that I--I um, think about that for the state and for myself and--and so I think it would be difficult to um, uh, identify a s--or to focus on uh, a particular impact of--of the new administration. I think that--that would be--I don't care to. SMOOT: All right. Um, could you evaluate the impact of the Medical Center on the community and the state, during your years being affiliated with that institution? DAKE: Well, um--profound (laughs) you know, what can you say but profound impact? The matter of--of um--of bringing, um, research oriented, uh, patient care into the state, the matter of--of the, um, taking of patient care out to some of the rural areas--which was done--um, the matter of the impact on--on education for nursing and on nursing practice in the state would be hard to measure--hard to measure. Um, you can get into cost factors and all those--you look at the ledger sheet, um, the impact cost-wise, the impact income-wise and I don't know where the bottom line on that would be, but I think that the people in the state, generally speaking, um, felt good about the-- the--the service component--what the Medical Center was doing for people in the state. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: The political part of it, the financial part of it--that's a whole 'nother and I'm--that's not my kind of category to, you know, delve into or comment on. SMOOT: What about the impact of the College of Nursing? DAKE: Well, I think--I think the--the numbers of nurses in the state increased. I think the--the continuing education, uh, efforts helped to improve nursing in the state. The whole development of associate degree education brought the university--brought university--uh, higher education nursing to the knowledge and to the homes and to the--to the care-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --of patients throughout the state. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, the impact just had to be, um, profound. SMOOT: What did you think of the quality of students that you were getting in the College of Nursing? DAKE: I don't recall ever being concerned about it--okay? SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I know that we're--we're getting very high; quality here, but I don't recall ever being concerned that we weren't getting an adequate quality there. I had--um, the school there was large enough so that I had a--a student services office-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --um, but we served a lot of students. SMOOT: How do you think the students, um, were in terms of comparativeness with students--graduates of other institutions around the country? DAKE: I have no reason to believe other than that they stood their own and were proud of from whence they came. Okay? SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I'm a little--I'm a little um--what shall I say? My mind is so full of what the graduates of this program are saying that it's a little hard to recall what the graduates of--of that program were saying; although, um, there certainly was--was never, um--by my recollection--negative feedback. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I think--I think we had every reason to believe that we had graduates out across the country who were, um, making very positive contributions, who were--who were feeling well satisfied that they were prepared--um, adequately prepared. We did a--a um, a follow-up study and I fortunately have a copy of that and that certainly had nothing but positive--um, positive feedback--from employers, from--from graduates. SMOOT: Um-hm. Would you be willing to go so far as to be arbitrary enough to rank the Kentucky program? Uh, would you say it was a--during your tenure there--it was in the top twenty of state institutions or uh, top thirty, uh, or is that something that's just difficult to do? DAKE: No, that's pretty difficult to do and--and actually, um, to my knowledge--to my knowledge about two years ago is the first time there has ever been any approach to ranking nursing educational programs-- institutions--in the country. Now, I'm fairly sure that it's not just to my knowledge, I think that's fact, but--so the whole--that whole business--you see, nursing education was only beginning to move into higher education at that point in time, so that, um, the whole--the whole national picture--the whole national phenomenon was extremely different at that point in time than it is today. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, doctoral programs--institutions, you know, competing for quality, competing for students in doctoral programs in nursing now. A doctoral program in nursing wasn't heard of at that point. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: We had--we had trouble getting--we had trouble getting fac-- faculty with master's degrees at that point in time. SMOOT: Um-hm. Why did you leave U.K.? DAKE: I think the--the predominant, uh, reason was length of tenure that I had been there. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, as I mentioned a minute ago, I just believe that--that it needed a new voice, a new face, um, new leadership. We were--we were at uh, a point where we needed to probably develop, uh, a--a new long range plan-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --not too different than--than where we are right now. We've got the--we've got--we--we had then the program well--well founded--the baccalaureate, the master's, the associate degrees; what next? Where do we go from here? And I think probably fourteen years is about as long as any individual ought to try to provide leadership in that kind of institution. I'm thinking right now, we're about into the next phase and I have a feeling it ought to have new leadership before too long. Um, I'm not sure any one individual ought to try to provide leadership for too long a period of time. I think they run out. They're not--I don't think anybody can do that. SMOOT: Um-hm. What did you do after you left U.K.? DAKE: I went to the American Nurses Association in Kansas City. The American Nurses Association moved its headquarters from New York City to Kansas City in the summer of 1972 and I went there and helped unpack the boxes for the department of nursing education. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: I was director of the department of nursing education at national headquarters. SMOOT: And after that? DAKE: I--I maintained and I tried to work, my way back east (Smoot laughs). West of the Mississippi was too far west for me. SMOOT: Um-hm, DAKE: And I think--I think, that--that what went on for a period of--of um--well, '72 to '79 is about seven years--is that I--I needed to find my way back into academe. The volunteer professional organization was not my cup of tea. I did all right; we got some things done. But it--the environment is not like an institution of higher education. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: It just is not. Um, so I came back and stopped a--a year at uh, Millikin University in [Decatur] Illinois and did a feasibility study to determine whether they should start a nursing program and they were not--there were a number of factors that weren't quite ready--yes, the feasibility study showed they should, but they were not quite ready to do it at that point in time. They didn't quite have the money, they didn't quite have this, there were some circumstances in the community that looked as if they might change that would be more conducive in a couple of years and--and so I came back--on back east and came to the national headquarters American Red Cross, and that was not all that I had hoped it might be and I don't think anything outside of higher education would have been all that I hoped it might be. I have spent too many years of my life in education to be comfortable and function well in a more voluntary, um, kind of organization. It is not the same. You're not deal--you don't deal with the same kind of people. You mentioned uh, teaching. You can--you can do so many other things in a university. The whole--the people with whom you associate are uh, rather different. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: So I came back to academe and have been extremely happy ever since. SMOOT: And you started back in academe here at James Madison? DAKE: Um-hm--'-79. SMOOT: Okay. Have you found-- DAKE: ----------? SMOOT: Have you found--yes. Have you found that your experience at Kentucky has served you well in terms of all your subsequent positions? DAKE: Oh, yes. Both the experience at Kentucky and the experience nationally while I was at Kentucky. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: Um, I mentioned to you--well, in terms of Dr. Huber--um, I was very active in the Southern Region Education Board Council on Nursing-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and we were one of the early, uh, programs in that--that organization. Vida Huber was then at--at Eastern Mennonite and knew me, because there, like everyplace, I was pretty much up front. I was, you know, a coordinator. I was behind the microphone. I was a program chairperson and--and these kinds of things. So people in SRED knew me and as a matter of fact, I, uh, think it made a considerable difference in the success I've had here because she knew me. She--I was not suspect to her. I had three predecessors who couldn't make it go. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: But uh--so, yes, I think--I think not only the experience at the university and in Kentucky, but the experience na--nationwide. SMOOT: Um-hm. You've obviously had a very, uh, active place within organizations--professional organizations and other organizations, uh. Do you care to discuss any of those? Uh, I note, for example, that you were at one time, uh, president, uh, of the Kentucky Board of Nursing in Education, uh, and Nursing Registration and, uh, oh, several other positions and then-- DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --it's a rather substantial-- DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --list. DAKE: Um-hm. SMOOT: Any of those, uh, experiences that--that you would care to discuss? DAKE: Well, I think the--the um, the president of the--of the Board of Nursing Education and--and Registration--it's the state board of nursing--was a very valuable, uh, experience and as I mentioned earlier, I think it's an experience--it was uh, an opportunity where I had um- -um--the chance to make--have impact on all of nursing education in the state. Um, I had the opportunity to provide leadership to that group-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --to develop regulations, um, that would--would improve nursing education in the state. Um, that was a--that was an important position and I--I value it highly and always, you know, always will value that. I think that one of the early experiences which uh, was really quite telling and no one has written it in a cornerstone or anything else, but I always maintain that--that uh, I played a major role in desegregating the Kentucky Hotel in the city of Louisville. SMOOT: Is that so? DAKE: Um, I was on um, a program planning committee for the State Nurses Association for the convention-- SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: --and that was like about my first year there and I'm young and I'm naive and I'm from New York state, okay? And in the course of planning the meeting, it came--it--comments were made that the meeting was scheduled to be held--as it had been held, uh, usually--at the Kentucky Hotel and, my goodness, it was such a shame. The Kentucky Hotel would not allow black nurses, uh, to reside in the hotel, would not allow black nurses to eat in the dining room, et cetera, et cetera and I recall--I could draw you a diagram of the room in which that meeting was held. I could not put faces--uh, names on faces because I--I--and I don't do well with names anyway, but I sat there and listened to those people bemoan that and finally was able to say, how can we hold a state meeting in a facility that will not accommodate our members? And that's really about all it took. People began to say, "Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. We're glad you said it. We couldn't quite say it" and so from that a letter was sent to the Kentucky Hotel saying thank you, but no thank you unless all of our members can have all privileges of all members and the Kentucky Hotel desegregated and we held the convention there and I am not kidding. That's exactly what happened. SMOOT: What year was that, do you recall? DAKE: Well, it was either '58 or '59 because I went there in '58. SMOOT: Yeah. DAKE: So it was probably '59. I probably didn't get on that planning committee the first year. SMOOT: Any other experiences, Kentucky or nationally, that you would care to relate, discuss? DAKE: Well, you know, that--that's what comes to mind. Um, well, I think one of the--one of the um, very interesting, uh, experiences I had was I was selected as--as the representative from Kentucky to be on the Defense Department--National Defense partme--Department's--Advisory Committee On Women In The Services, known as DACOWITS. That was a very exciting experience. That was one woman from every state in the country. SMOOT: Hmm. DAKE: A few nurses, a few lawyers, a few, um, socialites; they were by government--govern--gubernatorial--recommendation, fifty women, and we went all around, uh, and what we were dealing with there was uh, the discrimination of women in the services--whether they were nurses or whether they were, uh, enlisted females or officers--it was women in all of the services. SMOOT: Um-hm. DAKE: So we would go to different bases, um, across the country and--and uh--and visit and get acquainted and do our studies of how women were treated and this sort of thing. Um, that was an interesting one. Uh, it was interesting even though, being on that committee, because I had been an Army nurse, um, and I suppose therefore talked more Army, it came to be that the--the recruiters for the Navy and the Air Force kind of decided that there was no point in going to see Dean Dake because was (laughs) all Army (Smoot laughs). She wasn't going to recruit for anybody else, which, I always thought was an interesting--uh, interesting kind of thing. I don't--you know, I don't right off hand think of anything else particularly. SMOOT: Are there any other subjects you would wish to discuss concerning the Medical Center, the College of Nursing at--at the University of Kentucky? DAKE: Not that come to mind. SMOOT: Do you think that the questions I raised are the relevant ones, I'm not missing anything? DAKE: I have not been aware, as we've talked, that there's anything in particular. SMOOT: All right. Do you have any personal anecdotes that you'd like to relay? DAKE: Hadn't--I guess if I--if I've thought of them I've already, um, spilled them out. I don't th---nothing comes to mind. SMOOT: All right. Well, on--let me thank you on behalf of the Medical Center, the University of Kentucky and myself for taking so much of your time--very valuable as it is (Dake laughs)--to spend with me and tell me about your experiences at U.K. DAKE: Appreciate the opportunity. SMOOT: Thank you. [End of interview.] Dr. Marcia A. Dake (Dean of the College of Nursing 1958-1971) was the University of Kentucky College of Nursing's first dean. In this interview she discusses her nursing education and her initial impressions of the University of Kentucky Medical Center team. Dake also discusses her formulation of new ideas and innovations as the head of the College of Nursing. She outlines some of the challenges she faces, including authoritative doctoral prejudices and changes in administration. In addition, Dake covers her career after leaving the University of Kentucky. insert here