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1986-02-11 Interview with Joe V. Swintosky, February 11, 1986 1986OH087 UKMC 26 01:39:27 UKMC001 University of Kentucky Medical Center Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries Swintosky, Joseph V., 1921- -- Interviews University of Kentucky. Medical Center -- History University of Kentucky. College of Pharmacy Curriculum planning Curriculum change Kentucky Pharmaceutical Association Joe V. Swintosky; interviewee Richard C. Smoot; interviewer 1986OH087_UKMC26_Swintosky 1:|11(7)|20(1)|27(9)|36(12)|48(8)|59(12)|70(1)|80(8)|90(8)|102(7)|113(2)|122(11)|132(6)|140(8)|150(9)|160(7)|170(9)|180(3)|191(6)|200(3)|209(6)|218(8)|230(3)|239(8)|249(1)|258(5)|270(6)|284(11)|300(9)|314(9)|321(9)|331(8)|342(7)|352(6)|362(11)|379(7)|393(7)|414(6)|427(8)|440(12)|452(4)|467(3)|479(9)|489(12)|500(4)|510(8)|525(5)|536(9)|545(9)|557(3)|571(12)|580(3)|588(9)|608(13)|623(6)|632(3)|642(10)|654(6)|664(9)|674(7)|684(9)|695(10)|711(6)|730(10)|743(1)|754(4)|769(2)|787(1)|794(9)|803(2)|812(10)|827(2)|841(9)|853(2)|862(10)|876(6)|889(10)|902(5)|916(9)|929(1)|939(4)|953(10)|968(8)|988(3)|1003(2)|1011(6)|1018(11)|1026(1)|1036(10)|1051(5)|1066(13)|1081(10)|1092(5)|1104(4)|1121(6)|1142(3)|1151(10)|1164(7)|1176(4) audiotrans UKMCoh interview SMOOT: Dr. Swintosky, to begin why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself--your family background, where you were born and raised, what your family was like, your education? SWINTOSKY: Okay. I grew up in uh, rural Kewaunee, Wisconsin, near Green Bay, grew up uh, on a dairy farm, went to a public school there, uh, a one room school--up to the--up through the first eight years and then to a uh--to the city school--a city high school--in Kewaunee, Wisconsin. Went down to the University of Wisconsin for my uh, college education, enrolled in the pharmacy school there in uh, 1938, got my bachelor's degree there and then went on to get my Ph.D. degree in pharmacy, graduated in 1948. Uh, I stayed on there until 1953, as a faculty person. I really enjoyed education, really enjoyed teaching and uh, didn't--didn't think that I would ever leave education, but uh, it turned out that uh, I got married in 1953 and uh, I was interested in what was happening in the industry and those two things kind of together helped me uh, make a decision to go into the pharmaceutical industry for uh, some time. I accepted a position at Smith Kline & French Laboratories in Philadelphia, uh, joined the uh, research and development uh, division as a pharmaceutical chemist in uh, 1953 as a senior scientist and then stayed there until I was called one day, uh, from Kentucky, by a search committee uh, saying they were interested in uh, me as a possible candidate for the deanship. That was in 19--in the spring of 1966. Uh, my work at uh, SK&F was uh greatly involved with uh, research in the area of drug absorption, metabolism, distribution, excretion, uh, utilizing principals of uh, sustained drug release, uh, controlled drug release to make new products that uh were nonexistent uh, at the time. Uh, it was a way of creating a market for drugs that had already existed in uh, therapy, but didn't exist in a uh--in an oral dosage form that uh, had credibility and acceptance by physicians. So um, um, though I had been involved--did get involved in some actual development projects, uh, as we worked along, it became apparent to me and to the company too that perhaps I could be uh, given the responsibility for uh, managing the research in this area and identifying ways of um--of giving credibility to certain products that were conceived, certain kinds of tests that could show that we could make a better product or indeed did make a better product, uh, as far as the physician was concerned and uh, we could find drugs that seemed to have certain limitations uh, relative to their uh, utility in--in uh, dosage forms, it may be by its modifications or--uh, of the chemical uh, entity that was the drug or some kind of modification of a dosage form we could um, uh, build into the drug or the drug product, some utility that wasn't there previously and exploit it from a marketing standpoint and so the fourteen years I stayed at SK&F were very exciting years because no one was telling me what I must do, they were telling me, "Hey, there's a fertile area here for research and development and coming up with new product ideas and you go ahead and just--just work," you know, just do your thing and that's what I was doing. So, uh, you know, you're familiar with some of the uh, kinds of products like Contact--you know, a capsule with uh, about five hundred little particles in it, each discretely coated and so on, to release its drug at a different rate and protract the uh activity and response to the drug over hours, uh, longer time than you would normally get from just a plain drug. And we had to look--you can guess--that we had to look for coating agents that uh, accomplished this job, that were stable, that uh, when the product was uh stored or shipped at low temperatures or high temperatures uh, or stayed on the shelf for a year or two that--that the integrity of the product was maintained, that sort of thing. So uh, we studied lots of coating agents, waxes, fats, uh, ways of modifying drugs that uh, would give them new chemical properties as far as the compounding of them was concerned, but didn't change the therapeutic properties. We had to learn where certain drugs were absorbed in the GI tract, whether they were uh, stable in the stomach, stable in the intestine--or unstable--and uh, how to trigger the release of drugs or the opening of the dosage form in one site or another. There were just all kinds of things that could be looked at and uh, we looked at them. That was a--a very interesting time in my life, and yet uh, when the call came from the search committee here at Kentucky, uh, I really just didn't believe there was anything here I could be interested in. It was not a well-known school, it was uh, a school that uh, I think you would call it a regional school. It was a school without a graduate studies program, had a very, very small faculty, had only a B.S. program and uh, was taking care of the needs of Kentucky pretty well, but had very little visibility beyond Kentucky. I, um--I only did what I--I used to tell my employees--the people who worked in my section--that uh, you--you kind of owe it to yourself to go and look at a job when somebody's showing an interest in you. It's good for you to see what other places are doing and uh, what opportunities there are there and compare them with what--what you have. So when I--when I visited Kentucky, I did it in that spirit, that uh, I was really having a good time in the industry and uh, held a uh--a significant responsibility. I was the (coughs) director of the section on uh, what they call pharmaceutical research in pharmacy, uh, pretty much my own boss, doing a lot of publishing, perhaps more publishing than uh, I could have done in the uh, academic world. I had more access to sophisticated equipment and uh, budget than uh, I could ever have expected in academia. But uh, when I did get to visit the school here, the um--the message that I was getting is that there are things happening at Kentucky. There are some new things possible in--in uh, pharmacy education and uh, I guess for having lived in pharmacy education for a number of years, lived and worked, uh, at the University of Wisconsin for a number of years as a student and as a faculty member, I really never lost the feeling for academia and uh, um, looking at the situation here in 1966, the--the new Medical Center was--was--had been established and uh, there was uh, the thought of bringing the pharmacy school into the Medical Center division. It had not yet, at that time, been brought into the division and one of the first questions that uh, uh, President Oswald asked me is, uh, you know, "Where does--where does the College of Pharmacy belong?" Does it belong in the College of uh, Business and Economics? And I forget what the term was at that time, but now it's Business and Economics--or does it, you know, in--in the uh--in those--in that part of the campus or does it belong in the uh, Medical Center? I didn't have to stop and think about that one, I felt that uh, pharmacy ought to be a health profession and ought to uh, fit in with the other health professions and be located there and so--we talked about a number of things and the concept of clinical education was uh--was an important concept here at Kentucky in the Medical Center. Um, Dr. Willard, who was the vice-president of the Medical Center at that time and Jack Oswald, the president, both were uh, very outstanding salesmen, in a sense, you know. They--they had a strong, strong feeling for what was happening at Kentucky and communicated that, in effect said, come on, join us, you know, and help us pioneer some of these new things that can happen here and when I began talking about, uh, you know, the expanded role of pharmacists--the possible expanded role of pharmacists--in patient care, they seemed to like that. And uh, you know, it apparently was not a new idea with them, they were quite willing to accept the notion that a pharmacist could be much more involved in patient health care problems, that something beneficial would come from a greater knowledge on their part, of health care problems and if pharmacists were taught better about patient diseases, human need, uh, given an ability to speak the language of a physician, that is take more uh, biologically oriented courses--physiology, pathology and so on--that uh, they could really become very useful in supplying information to not only patients, but to physicians and other health care providers who uh, needed to use drugs and drug products, that their ability to tell physicians and others about--here are the drugs that we know so much about, here are the ways in uh, which they can be used, here are the uh, generic forms of a drug that you know well as uh, another drug or here is the uh, route of administration that will give you one kind of effect whereas another route, uh, you can have a different expectation and a different frequency of administration. Uh, this--this could become very valuable to health care providers and at the same time if-- if uh, pharmacists took a real caring attitude about patients, that they would be more respected, more appreciated and perhaps more valuable as a member of that health care team that related to the uh, patient in the course of his illness. That--that uh--that concept was very intriguing to me because uh, early on in my experience at SK&F, uh, I felt that if we were going to make good drug products for the patient, pharmacists would have to start uh, devising the kinds of uh, clinical studies that enabled them to evaluate the dosage form they were making. In other words, these sustained action dosage forms uh, really uh, as--as we were progressing in the development process, we needed to be able to give these not only to animals and follow their blood--the blood levels of the drug or some--some other uh, uh, response--could be a pharmacologic response--um, but we--we needed to do this eventually in humans, and so, uh, I was able, uh, I think uh, to function as the first pharmacist to create protocols for studies in human subjects and with the assistance of physicians, uh, get approval for the study in the given subjects and start monitoring these uh, urine levels and blood levels in particular at uh--at the start and uh, come up with products that uh, we felt were made about as good as could be made or needed to be made to accomplish once a day therapy or--or twice a day therapy and uh, uh, I felt, you know, that this would be a very wonderful contribution that a pharmacist could make in the industry. But after, you know, thinking about this and thinking about uh, what pharmacists could be taught to do in the--the hospital or in a pharmacy setting or--what we could teach students in the colleges of pharmacy in this clinical concept of drug product evaluation, uh, might very well be built right into our curriculum and uh, pharmacists--the scope of pharmacy practice would be broadened immensely. So, that in fact happened uh, when, you know, when I came here, as I said, I--I least expected that Kentucky would be attractive to me because it was not a sophisticated school. It was not uh, physically a uh, well supported school. The plant--physical plant--was very small. There was no research equipment to--to speak of. Budget was very, very limited and the uh--the faculty were not of a research mold--they were teachers. But when we got to talking about all the things that could be done to bring this school into the uh, forefront of pharmacy schools in the country and uh, the president and vice-president were constantly supporting that approach and they were supportive of the idea of uh, clinical research and clinical uh, investigation at this institution and to establishing a close relationship with the College of Medicine and getting to--allowing us to use the uh--the hospital and other uh, settings on campus for teaching and research it really got exciting. It--it--it--it became a uh--a point of interest to me that most major pharmacy schools would not uh, look kindly to this sort of thing. They- -the--the--the uh, usual pharmacy school with established investigators, uh, would be hard to change, whereas in this school there was no precedent that needed to change. You know, you didn't need to talk to these people and say, uh, that we would like you to do something different in research--they weren't doing any research and they weren't doing any development, but uh, it was something that they could contribute to--clinical teaching and uh, uh, changing the direction of pharmacy through curriculum modification and with permission from the administration to hire in new people who could give us some uh, leadership in the research arena and uh, give us some rigorous support and direction in curriculum modification. We began to move into this clinical area and within a very short time really, we acquired some kind of reputation for innovation that uh, captured the attention of faculties across the country. Uh, in 1967, we started with that little building which we uh, just moved out of and by the time uh, we moved into this building we had been occupying space in about eight other buildings--seven other buildings. We uh--as I said, we initiated the graduate studies program in 1968, one--one--one year after arriving, the--the administration already had committed to uh, us establishing a graduate program and we had been able to hire in enough uh, experienced people in this area to get approval of a graduate program in 1968. We also got then, advanced uh, or modified uh, professional instruction program--the Pharm. D.--introduced in 1968. That was a uh--a program calling for an additional academic year, leading to a doctorate in pharmacy, rather than--the--the non-doctorate. And we established a residency, uh, which was a college managed residency. That was something different; we got into the hospital in a way in which uh, almost nobody had been in uh, the hospital as a uh, teaching arena. We were able to establish externships, which nobody had been able to do up to that time in pharmacy. And uh, just were able to uh, kind of be the herald for clinical education nationwide. Uh, people saw us as pioneers and uh, we and the California schools, I think, get credit for establishing clinical education. Uh, by 1970--'74, when an investigator in Columbia--a professor in Columbia--undertook uh, an evaluation of colleges of pharmacy, he used an interesting technique, he simply wrote each of the deans in the seventy-two colleges across the country and said, how would you rank uh, schools of pharmacy across the country and then he asked for the top ten in the order of ranking. And in 1974, when that report was made, we ended up as the fifth in 72, which uh, had a very, very fine effect on the morale of faculty (both laugh) around the college. It uh--you know, everybody felt they--they were really doing things around here and were working hard and accomplishing a lot and uh, uh, having a good time doing it, but uh, have found then that uh, deans across the country would rank us fifth by the method that was used was uh, really uh, pleasurable. Well, it turned out that that study was criticized and--and uh, in a way in which the investigator felt that he had to repeat it. So the next year he repeated it and we came out fourth. (both laugh) So we were again very pleased. Uh, those were the only two times that that kind of evaluation had been made regarding colleges of pharmacy and uh, at this point, you know, I'm ready for another one, I think. We're a much, much more sophisticated, stronger school now. We have--certainly have a physical plant that is a--um, substantially more modern and uh, better one than the old building--the old buildings that we occupied. Every building we occupied was, you know, we had to move into and uh, improvise to make it accommodate to our program needs, so we're--we're glad we're here and uh, our faculty has been considerably expanded since the '73 - 74 days. Our budget is very, very much improved from the uh, two-hundred and sixty thousand annual budget of 1967 to the uh, approximately three million dollar budget now, from UK plus uh, another two million or more that we raise annually through extramural uh, grants and that sort of thing. So our total budget now is well in excess of uh, five million dollars annually. It's--which is uh, about a twenty-fold increase from 1967 to the present and--and as I said, much of that comes from extramural funds and the extramural funds are some indication of the quality of your faculty and the respect and uh, appreciation of peers who ultimately control or influence what you're able to get through grant applications. But we have--I think--a very good teaching, uh, faculty, quite, uh--or--you know, if you will check the uh--the records, you'd find that uh, quite a number of our faculty have been selected for great teacher awards that are given here at the University of Kentucky. In--in research here we've--we've certainly got our share of national awards as individuals. Um, four of our faculty have been selected as presidents of the Academy of Pharmaceutical Sciences, which has had about twenty-one presidents in its history. Um, the--the uh--there's a lot of recognition of faculty in our college, that have real leadership qualities in pharmaceutical sciences. In the uh--in the service arena, I think we have a reputation of uh--of having about uh--as good a service group of faculty in a hospital setting--university hospital setting--as you can find in the country. Uh, many of our Pharm. D. resident graduates go on to be faculty in other schools. I suppose we have turned out more faculty than any other school in the country in that regard because we did so much to pioneer clinical education and do it in a way in which was accepted by uh, colleges across the country and they looked to us initially to be providing their teachers who could teach what we teach. So it's--it's been good. Well, that's kind of a thumbnail-- SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: --sketch of some thoughts I have, at least on where we come from and 1967 to the present and my own--my own pharmacy background. My own pharmacy background is uh, primarily in education and in industry. I spent very little time in uh, community pharmacy practice, although I have spent uh, a few months in it at least. SMOOT: Well, you could draw upon a wide range of experiences when you were corning to Kentucky then. Uh, obviously, your dealings with uh, Smith Kline & French and--in applied uh, pharmacy, uh, pharmaceutical research and your educational background at Wisconsin--the University of Wisconsin-- SWINTOSKY: Yeah, University--the U--I might say that the University of Wisconsin uh, has been for many, many years one of the leading schools in pharmacy education and uh, I suppose uh many of my own feelings about the importance of good education and the importance of strong faculty and the place of faculty in the profession--in the leadership of the profession--that the uh--the feelings of my teachers are often, I think, my own feelings. You ought to do your darndest to fulfill yourself, to be great, to be outstanding. When you commit to pharmacy education it's--it's a total commitment and you ought to be thinking uh, pharmacy and your job twenty-four hours a day. And I kind of expect that of our people. If you hire people who have a total commitment, who want to come here and be distinguished people, if they don't have that as one of their uh, real uh, missions in life, then maybe they ought to be doing something else. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: And not come to Kentucky. SMOOT: Hmm. I'm interested in what you described uh, to me regarding your decision to come to the University of Kentucky and your meetings with President Oswald and with Dr. Willard, uh, and the innovations that they were offering to you in terms of your position here in the College of Pharmacy and also perhaps your impressions of the innovations that they were succeeding or not succeeding with, uh, within the university at large and within the Medical Center in particular. What were your impressions of the university, the Medical Center, Drs. Oswald and Willard and the general setting? You've already described a little bit about what you would be facing uh, coming into the College of Pharmacy, but the general setting, I'm--I'm curious about your impressions. SWINTOSKY: Well, I guess the uh--the message that I was getting was that the University of Kentucky and the Medical Center were places that were on the move, that the uh, administration was very desirous of uh, uh, raising standards and in being uh, innovative. They wanted to do new things that were important for the people and that we could do something that fit that pattern in pharmacy, they would be happy. They would be very pleased with us joining forces with uh, a lot of new people, in new programs, trying to uh, uh--trying to carry out the missions of the university. I--I--I sensed that uh, it would be possible to get support from this kind of administration for the new things that were on my mind, you know. I--I guess, uh, I--I--I feel-- and I try to understand myself that uh, I--I constantly see opportunity for improving things, that uh, the world about me, you know, may be a fine place, but uh, there's so many things that could be done better- -or done differently--so that the end result is better, that here was a place to do it. They were ready for it. Uh, my--I've mentioned to you that the concept of clinical education, which I was promoting, was not--would not be received at well--as well--at other schools. At the time I was being interviewed here, it--it turned out that, uh, you know, somebody had been dropping my hat into the uh--to the ring for deanships at other schools, so I had visited other schools too, one of which was the University of Wisconsin--my old uh, university--and uh, they--the idea of changing to clinical education, uh, changing the directions of the curriculum and of research of pharmacy was not nearly as well accepted in established schools because, you know, people had things they wanted to--to do. It--some of them had been doing uh, certain kinds of researches and teaching certain kinds of courses in a given way and uh, it's hard to really fully understand why they would not be receptive to uh, a change of direction, but uh, I suppose it's in part related to knowing that you are successful or doing something pretty well in uh, uh--in your field and not uh, changing in midstream- -uh, might take you a few years to become as productive in a new area. In any case, I was almost certain that the University of Wisconsin and some of the other places that I visited were not receptive in a way that the University of Kentucky was and uh, that that had a big bearing on uh, my final decision to come to Kentucky. And as I said, I--I did not think that Kentucky had anything really to offer me, prior to my visit here. You know, when I got the call uh, from the search committee and uh, it turned out it was a professor in chemistry that called me and uh, Chancellor Bosomworth happened to be on that search committee--you know--the fir--the uh--the original thought of leaving an industry that I, you know, a--a job that I was very interested in, very--I think--quite successful in and uh, coming to a college and a university that was really not well known, uh, my--my whole outlook changed as I made several visits. After the first visit, I was convinced that, hey, is there something going on here that I ought to explore and think about and uh, uh, perhaps come back for a second visit or a third visit. And so following the visit in the winter or spring of 1966, I did make a few additional visits and quite a few phone calls and so on as I visited several other schools, but uh, by the time October rolled around, uh, that one--you know, I think maybe I ought to take this job. It's being offered to me, I ought to take it. SMOOT: Um-hm. (Swintosky laughs) Lexington provided quite a change too, from uh, Philadelphia, did it not? SWINTOSKY: Well, uh, some--in--in a way, I guess so. Uh, I--I lived in rural Pennsylvania, about uh, forty or forty-four mi--five--forty or forty-five miles from my job, so uh, I was in the wooded hills of Pennsylvania and uh, for having been raised as a country boy, I--I just kind of like uh, the open spaces and all the fishing and hunting and all that sort of thing that uh, living outside of a big city offers you. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: So I don't know if it was that big a change, but uh, Kentucky uh, has got a kind of culture and uh, flavor about it that's a little different than the east and uh, particularly Pennsylvania--the part of Pennsylvania I lived in. When I was in town, of course uh, I was big city boy, but uh, out in the country I was uh, settled in with the--the Pennsylvania Deutsche. They were kind of a unique group of people to start with and uh, when I settled in here, I settled in in Nicholasville and got me a little piece of property right in the city that uh, makes me feel like a country dweller. I have about three acres and I am able to plant, and plant uh, gardens and fruit trees and that sort of thing and when uh--when everything is leafed out it's--I almost feel like I'm out in the country then (both laugh) when I'm in my backyard. When I'm in my front yard, my how the traffic has picked up. SMOOT: Yes. SWINTOSKY: I live on Highway 27 and, you know--you know what uh, things look like now on Highway 27. SMOOT: Yes, I've seen reports on the news about that. SWINTOSKY: Yeah. SMOOT: Were you introduced to very many of the other leaders in the Medical Center when you came here--uh, some members of Dr. Willard's staff, uh, uh, leaders in the Medical Center, some of the other innovators in uh-- SWINTOSKY: Yeah, of course I uh--I'd met Al Morris. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: And uh, Al is a good salesman, too. You know, uh, he came here I believe from Philadelphia, uh, was bringing leadership to the dental school and they had quite a reputation for being innovative. Joe Hamburg, uh, was the uh, new dean in the College of Allied Health Sciences and he was persuasive in a--in a--I thought he and uh, Al were very encouraging. And then uh, Marcia Dake was the uh, new dean in nursing and she was very encouraging. So it--it--it uh, was very interesting that these people had uh, chosen to come to Kentucky because they too saw opportunity here for innovation and uh, progress. If you had ideas, here was a place to try to get them in place, to get them uh, functioning. (coughs) So um, they sure were, uh, I think, instrumental in uh encouraging me, in saying, hey, come on, join us and get some of these things done you were talking about. We--we believe in the same thing. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: And of course Dr. Willard was the dean of the College of Medicine at that time, uh, while he was also the vice-president of the Medical Center, so the uh--well, all those deans were I thought charming and persuasive people. They--they were quite believable, I thought. Uh, I didn't think they were stringing me on and uh, Jack Oswald was an unusual man. I--I--I was very much impressed with him and um, liked the way he uh--he talked about his plans for the university and what was happening at the University of Kentucky and how he was trying to get into the uh--the big time in terms of schools, universities. He thought Kentucky could become a great school, so-- SMOOT: He had of course so many difficulties when he was here, uh, for a variety of reasons, uh-- SWINTOSKY: Well, you know, he--he was bringing about change at a pace that uh, was really pretty hard for people to accommodate. It was--I think that'll happen almost any time you try to bring about change, that there's going to be people around to try to stop change. (laughs) And uh, to some degree I felt that uh, that happened when I uh, came, that there were certain elements within the profession that uh, worried that what you were doing or trying to do was uh, regressive rather than progressive, (laughs) that it might hurt them rather than help them and that sort of thing. It's almost like uh--like being a politician. You know, there--uh, you join uh, one party, you can be almost sure that there's another group around that's going to try and unseat you. (laughs) And I suppose that uh--that faces a dean all the time. He's got very, very many constituents and uh, you can't please them all, all the time. You have to, in the end, make decisions that uh, you believe can be attained, that--that you--you know, you can take actions that can be achieved and uh, that you will, in the course of your work, bring a--enough uh, assurance and integrity to what you're doing to have enough supporters to stay around and get the job done. SMOOT: Um-hm. May we pause a moment? [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: We were discussing a lot of the changes that were taking place within the university and in the College of Pharmacy in particular. How well did you find the changes that were taking place in the College of Pharmacy corresponded to what was taking place in the Medical Center and the university as a whole? Or to put that another way, uh, you were heavily involved--and correct me if I'm wrong, but at least from what I can gather--you were heavily involved with a lot of the changes that were taking place here, with the Medical Center as well, committee work, uh, not so much perhaps in the--in the uh, forefront--I'm not so sure, I--I'm--I'm asking--but how well did the School of Pharmacy fit in, the College of Pharmacy fit in with--with all these other changes that were taking place? SWINTOSKY: Well, I think that uh, we uh--we really became integrated into the Medical Center uh, after my arrival. We had not uh, you know, taught any courses uh, utilizing physician help or utilizing uh, resources or rooms or patient uh, settings uh, prior to 1967. But uh, as soon as there was an acceptance of the clinical concept and uh, uh, encouragement from uh, the Medical Center administration to move in this direction, of course this enabled our faculty and our students and myself to relate to other people in the Medical Center. That just didn't exist before or, you know, if it existed it was at a very, very modest level and uh, uh, medical students never met pharmacy students or dental students or anything like that. That just--we--we were in a--uh, you know, in a different setting, we were removed by a--uh, physically from the Medical Center in the old building so that uh, that communication didn't exist, but as soon as the concept of clinical education uh, was accepted, we began communicating in a--in--to such a degree that uh, you knew what was going on in uh, other colleges, uh, certainly as a dean, uh, I could participate in the deans' meetings, uh, which were weekly at that time. We learned- -uh, I certainly learned uh, a lot about uh, the problems, uh, that other uh, colleges faced and particularly about the--the problems of running a, uh, top-flight hospital and that sort of thing, so I felt I became a participant--party to--almost everything that went on in the uh, Medical Center. On the other hand, I also felt that uh, I was constantly overwhelmed with affecting change in bringing about growth and progress in our own college. It was a very--I felt it was a very, very demanding job and uh, didn't find myself volunte--uh, volunteering my services to everybody else uh, uh, to help them solve their problems. (both laugh) So uh--I--I think the--the thing that we uh--that brought us all together was the uh--the clinical concept. That was one that seemed to prevail uh, across all the colleges that our first allegiance and goal must relate--must-- must deal with the patient and his or her needs and we all ought to be making decisions that uh, in the end, serve the needs of that patient. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: Sometimes there are differences of opinion, there are turf- -turf decisions that sometimes are a little hard to uh, resolve, but I think in those years--in the late six--sixties, we were not as much concerned about turf as we are now. Economics uh, of our times are such that uh, people in their respective areas don't want to give up what they have for their own interest--not necessarily the patient's interest, but for their own interest. And we didn't have that problem to any great degree, uh, or to the same degree as exists now. SMOOT: Um-hm. You've already described that you were very much involved with the changes in the curriculum--revisions in the curriculum- -when you first came here and the development of not only a strong undergraduate professional program, but also a stronger graduate program, continuing education programs. SWINTOSKY: Yes, we established continuing education. It had--uh, it really hadn't been in--in existence in the way in which we have developed it. People on our faculty were available to give talks and that sort of thing, but over the years uh, we've made it a point to uh, formalize continuing education so that uh, our faculty today may give forty or fifty presentations across the state. We'll have (coughs) a few major one to two day programs here and in Louisville. We do have a formal CE staff where none existed before. As I said, the graduate program--the--we--we just didn't have a graduate program or graduate faculty in uh, in 1967. That had to be established and uh, uh, we just didn't, interrelate with the Medical Center, uh, certainly not--not one-hundredth the activity that we have now. But uh, the faculty, you know, once the faculty uh, became attuned to these ideas of uh, clinical education, changing the curriculum, changing the directions of pharmacy education, changing the practices of pharmacy, uh, when the pharm--uh, faculty became attuned to this and indicated their support for this kind of approach to pharmacy practice and education, I think that was the clincher, as far as I was concerned, about joining- -joining this faculty as a dean. We held some, you know, some uh, uh, gatherings, we had some uh, meetings together to find out if the faculty was supportive of me and if I could support what the faculty wanted and uh, it seemed to me like we were pretty--pretty attuned to each other before I had to make the decision to take the job. And I suppose taking a while to uh, make a decision about leaving industry to go to academia, I suppose took me nine months to come around to that decision, gave me the kind of time that was important to enable all of us in this faculty, the people in the administration of the Medical Center and myself to--to know where we were going if I were to join the faculty, uh, and so there weren't any great surprises left after I got here, that hadn't all been talked out pretty well and uh, we uh--we were all kind of pointed in the same direction and really went to work. (laughs) SMOOT: You brought in some new faculty members though, did you not? SWINTOSKY: Yes. Yes, I brought some people with me within the first year, that I think were very instrumental in bringing about uh, the changes that we--we felt needed to be made and, um, Dr. [Lewis] Dittert, uh, came a few months after I did. Uh, he came from SK&F, he was working in my group. Dr. [J.T.] Dolusio came uh, a few months after I did. He had uh--had been a faculty member at the Philadelphia College of Pharmacy and Science and we had worked together uh, for a number of years - written a chapter of a book together and did some researches uh, which the company uh, supported, but uh, was done, some of it in our lab, some of it in his lab and that sort of thing. Dr. [Harry] Kostenbauder came with us, I believe in 1968, uh, he had been the uh--he had been a senior person at Temple University in Philadelphia and had been the acting dean there. So we--we--we got some people who were experienced in teaching and research and were not uh, averse to stepping into this arena and uh, trying to improve upon the curriculum and uh, improve on the uh--the strategies of the school. I think uh, uh, those three people were a great, great help to me the first year or two in getting started in the uh, new program areas and they, coupled with uh, the faculty who were here, really brought about uh, a re-focusing of where this College of Pharmacy was uh, headed. And of course then over the years we've been able to bring on the more traditionally educated kind of pharmaceutical educator, more Ph.D. people and that sort of thing. SMOOT: You mentioned earlier that a--the financial support, uh, for the College of Pharmacy has increased substantially-- SWINTOSKY: Yes. SMOOT: --since you have arrived here. SWINTOSKY: Um-hm. SMOOT: In your opinion, has that financial support been adequate to the goals and objectives you have had for this college? SWINTOSKY: No, I thought we were always lagging. I thought we were always lagging in terms of uh--of support we received and uh, as recently, I guess, as 1979 when uh, the chancellor ultimately said, "Well, let's make a uh, survey of benchmark institutions and see where we stand in terms of budget and--and uh, any number of things." And uh, as a result of that uh, survey, we found that we were one of the lowest supported schools in terms of budget, but we did find that we were one of the highest supported schools in terms of extramural funds and with those very substantial extramural funds, we were able to do so many of the things that other schools couldn't do because they didn't have the research funds. That's where you have to find them, you know, extramurally. The state doesn't give them to you or they give--they give you modest support. It gets hidden in the faculty salaries, a proportion of your time is devoted to research. Uh, it might get hidden in some of the uh, modest equipment support that you get through general funds. But most of our funding for equipment, support of graduate students, support of postdoctorals, support of technicians and that sort of thing comes from these extramural funds that were generated from NIH and the American Heart Association and uh, the industry. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: So uh, this might, you know, be of interest for you to look sometime at that uh, survey of benchmark institutions of the institutions that were uh, compared, and I believe these included Minnesota and Ohio State and Buffalo and Tennessee and North Carolina and Florida, that the monies raised per faculty member for researches and scholarship were much, much greater in Kentucky than in any other school. Uh, and uh, of course that's uh--that's a good indicator that you have a hard working faculty and you have a um--uh, a faculty of such quality that they--on a competitive basis--do a better job of attracting funds to themselves than other schools and their--their faculties do. I uh--I've always felt that uh, we are a very productive school. We--we not only--once you have the uh, kinds of people who can raise funds, of course then you in effect have committed--you've got a situation involving where they are committed to using those funds appropriately and that means working. And so all of our faculty are so--uh, it's kind of a machine that's made to assure that the faculty are working when they uh, have enough funds to support graduate students and technicians and postdoctorals around them. These people- -if they are doing their job--will keep a faculty member alert and busy keeping them busy. (both laugh) In this process we uh--we manage to have on board now about twenty postdoctorals annually. Um, they didn't--postdoctorals were unknown here uh, until the late 1960s and uh, went from zero to a head count of about fifty-five people working for Ph.D's here now and went from a technician level of zero to about twenty, so it's kind of a work force, a supporting group of people for faculty who are able to raise these extramural funds. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: We started The Spatula, I think you maybe saw a copy of that, got that started as a--a way of staying in touch with our graduates, staying in touch with uh, pharmacists in the state of Kentucky and some friends who've been interested in--in our college and it's a uh--kind of a public relations device, people will always know we're around and uh, what we're doing--what we're doing well--we try to publicize that. Uh, I--you know, a group that I haven't really talked about as much as uh, perhaps I should are--are the students. Uh, I always try to get across the message that uh, our profession is really only as good as the students we attract to it and we must try very hard to attract the quality student, not only um, intellectually, but quality in terms of character. You have people who are committed to being servants of society and I feel very strongly that pharmacists ought to be first people who get their kicks out of helping other people, helping them specifically in the--in the field that they're authorities in--drugs and drug products and their appropriate use--and if we do a good job in selecting students, well, that--that'll show too in the--the quality of pharmacists that are out there, the roles they play in their comm--communities and so on, but it'll also show where--wherever students can be active and if they can be active in the community in uh, helping people uh, know about drugs and poisons and how to use uh, products appropriately, what substances around the house are--homes--are dangerous and poisonous and that sort of thing, well, that--that represents one arena. Um if they're active in uh, professional societies and in their own student groups, uh, they ought to be innovative and uh--and progressive in a way in which they can uh demonstrate uh, what they do to other students across the country to influence those other students and uh, our students uh, are members--they have representation on the Kentucky Pharmaceutical Association--in the Pharmaceutical Association. They um, are strong supporters of the uh, Student American Pharmaceutical Association. They have representation in the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy and uh, wherever there are opportunities for students to uh, put on programs and uh, show their leadership skills, um, then our students try and do that. I try to tell them how much it means to me to have them recognized as being, you know, among the finest student groups in the country. And uh, I--you know, over a number of years our college, uh, has been--our--our student body has been putting on the kinds of programs that uh, have attracted attention and they've won their fair share of prizes, but I believe in the last five years each year they've come out in the--the top three or four, uh, student groups in the country as far as recognition, (coughs) in recognition of the quality of their program. That is to say, (coughs) to compete, they have to give an accounting of their activities throughout the year and how well they stack up against the activities of comparable groups of students across the country, and uh, they've come out in that, uh, you know, the top few each year in the last five years and I believe uh, in two separate years they were first. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: Which, you know, as a dean it makes you feel very good and I think it makes the faculty feel very good. And uh, if we all kind of think that uh, we have to be working to--together toward that--uh, a goal of excellence and try to get across the idea that every individual should try to be excellent and if that's true then the--the whole has to be excellent and the programs will be excellent. And um, to some degree, I think that has--uh, has been a notion that's well accepted because uh, the uh, students have demonstrated that they can win as many awards as anybody else--through what they do and how they do it. So we--we've got some good, good leaders among our student body uh, who bring about the kind of uh, concentration and commitment to student programs and student leadership in the professional arena. SMOOT: I was curious about that question; you anticipated my asking that, as a matter of fact. But, most of the students that you have here, are they not from Kentucky? SWINTOSKY: Yes, I would say uh, in our undergraduate uh, student body that uh, 90 percent are from Kentucky. SMOOT: And you have found the quality of the students coming into this college from Kentucky to be just as high--in fact higher in terms of their national uh, competition record. SWINTOSKY: Yeah, the com--uh, the quality of our students in Kentucky is great. It really is good. SMOOT: Um-hm. Because you--you do hear, and I know you've heard it at various times, uh, these students are not getting a very good education, when they come into our school they don't know anything. We have to train them back and forth. Uh, I've heard several references to that. SWINTOSKY: Yeah, well, I guess that uh, somebody's trying to get across the message that there are opportunities for improving the educational standards across the state. They may be spotty and, uh, you know, I'm willing to accept that, but I think the quality of the student is not spotty. At--at least uh, we're getting our fair share of some, very good students and uh, uh, I guess, when you start talking about uh, educational or the quality of education across the state, uh, it's pretty hard to keep a good person down, irrespective of where you teach them or how you teach them. I--I--I think good--goodness and uh, quality will ultimately uh, emerge and uh, show itself, even uh--even if you come from a one room school. And, you know, I understand that there are still a few one room schools in the--in the state and uh, for having come from one myself, uh, I see some real advantages in the one room school, some things that people don't care to talk about, but uh, uh, I think you have a--a unity of purpose and uh, unifying forces that exist uh, in a one school--one room school system that could bring parents and teachers and students together in a way in which you don't achieve in--in big schools. And uh, we may not have had as many tools to work with, but uh, we knew that when the teacher expected something of us, that the parents also expected the same thing. The parents had a big role in hiring that teacher and knowing what they expected of the teacher and there was much uh, understanding and uh--and good feeling, uh, between parents and teachers and uh--you know, I never got away with anything as a student, uh, that students are, I think, getting away with now. There was uh--there was understanding of what you were in school for and uh, no one would tolerate the kinds of uh, abridging of rules that occurs now in big schools, that just uh--you know, we all knew each other too--we knew what uh--what was expected. We as students, and uh, parents and teachers would not put uh, up with any nonsense that uh, you know, it's--it's hard to cope with today in the schools. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: So--I--I thought I learned a lot in eight grades in a one room school. SMOOT: You were here when Dr. Willard was the vice-- SWINTOSKY: Vice-president. SMOOT: --president of the Medical Center. And then, of course he stepped down from that position. SWINTOSKY: Um-hm. SMOOT: Did you detect any important changes in the transition from Dr. Willard to Dr. Bosomworth, who of course later became chancellor--the position was reevaluated and changed? SWINTOSKY: It's hard to uh, put a finger on it. It's--there's certainly a, uh, difference in personalities of--of the individuals. I think uh, you know, both of the individuals were um, uh, encouraging and um, perhaps endowed with some of the same spirit. Uh, at the time that uh, I arrived, of course I recognized that uh, really the Medical Center was in its infancy and uh, Dr. Willard was a--a builder of uh, an institution that was kind of coming from uh, a corn field--uh, from nothing to something. The next individual to come along, Dr. Bosomworth, had quite a--quite a physical plant in place and uh, I suppose many, many more uh, people already on board who reflected some of the pioneering of--of uh, Dr. Willard. I wouldn't know, you know, how to uh--how to really characterize the differences between the people. SMOOT: Did you notice any changes in--in the goals and objectives of the Medical Center with that transition or over the years, for that matter, that--uh, that you have been associated with the Medical Center? SWINTOSKY: Well, the um--the changes that occurred with the--with the uh, replacement of Dr. Willard, I suppose kind of followed in line with the changes that occurred with the replacement of uh, Dr. Oswald, and uh, it's--it's hard for me to really articulate what those were, but uh, there may have been much more closeness of the deans with Dr. Oswald and in turn with Dr. Willard, than uh, exists now. I think the deans do have access to the chancellor, but not quite as much as uh, in the days when we were smaller and--and got together on a weekly basis. Now I think we get together uh, every six weeks or every two months and uh, it doesn't seem like there is quite the camaraderie that uh, existed then and that the uh, intensity of change was not (laughs) is not so great today as uh--as it was then. I think it was almost uh, revolutionary then, you know, that you--you were at Kentucky, going to do something that all the big schools in the country uh, were having trouble to bring, uh, you know, bring about. Here we were going to do it and--and we did it. But uh, certainly Dr. Willard and Dr. Bosomworth are different kinds of people. SMOOT: Um-hm. Do you think that the Medical Center p--has--and this is a criticism I've heard. SWINTOSKY: Um-hm. SMOOT: Do you think that the Medical Center has become too big? SWINTOSKY: Well, I don't know that it's become too big. I expect that with bigness though, comes some uh, inability to be close to everybody, you know. As you grow in size you lose the opportunity to relate to everyone the way you wish you could and I-- SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: --I think as in the deanship here, there have been so many things going on at the college that I've always kind of rationalized to myself that I don't have the time to spend with our faculty and students to get to really know them uh, the way I would like and I rationalize that uh, well, that's because you're so busy accomplishing- -trying to accomplish--change, but uh, that's a part of it, but as we've grown in size our student body has uh--has about tripled. Our faculty has about tripled since uh, my arrival in '67 and uh, I guess the ability to communicate and uh, to get to know people always presents some problems, but they are not getting easier, they're getting more difficult with size and uh, there's something to be said for smallness. SMOOT: Um-hm. Have you, in your capacity as dean, ever had to work with--in a direct sense--with uh, the people in Frankfort, the uh, legislators or the governors? SWINTOSKY: Not very much. I think uh, the way this--the way the uh, university administration is um, set up, there's not much opportunity for us to uh, really deal directly with legislators. I think perhaps the president and his--his style is such--is that he uh--he doesn't encourage it. He would rather that he take his staff and deal directly with the Council on Higher Education and uh, the legislators and the governor and uh, the governor's assistants staff and the uh--we--we don't act very independently at my level. Now, I think that's true across the deans, that uh, they're not really all that involved in uh, uh, one on one relationships with legislators. This doesn't mean that I haven't gotten to meet some and that uh, there aren't some opportunities to do this. In the profession, in the Kentucky Pharmaceutical Association, uh, uh, tends to be uh, public relations and politically oriented and uh, they will have days during the year when uh, uh, they will set up meetings with legislators who are in town and certainly as a uh, pharmacist, uh, I can join that group and uh, meet the legislators, and uh, hear them, and they hear us, about what we consider issues in pharmacy and issues in pharmacy education. But uh, it's really nothing that I give uh, a great deal of time to. It's- -it's not the way the university is set up. SMOOT: Um-hm. Do you think that the current set-up is the most efficient way of approaching it? SWINTOSKY: It's hard--it's really hard to know. I think uh--I think my own feeling is that uh, I could probably do more for pharmacy if I were relating directly to the legislators and the governor, but maybe not. Could be--could be that it would be very confusing to everybody to, you know uh, have the governor hear all the deans and uh, the legislators get to know all the deans and some of their faculty. Uh, it--it could become very political, which might not be too good. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: Oh, I think I feel comfortable with the present system. SMOOT: Do you think that you received uh, a great deal of support from the pharmacists within the state, you--you talked about your continuing education program, uh, then other, perhaps more tangible or even intangible ways has the profession within the state of Kentucky been supportive of the College of Pharmacy? SWINTOSKY: I think in many, many ways it has been. Uh, one would like to think that you had unanimous support and that people were uh, patting you on the back uh, with some frequency about, you know, the things you do. I haven't felt that uh, there is that kind of unanimity. And it surely uh--uh, surely out there, there are many, many views that you could encounter and uh, depending upon what you are looking for, I think you could find it. There would be people around who would say that they spend too much time in research. Somebody else might say, uh, you know they have no business, uh, trying to change the directions of the profession--making it clinical uh--what do we need all that clinical training for? And that sort of thing. But I think there are also uh, a lot of people out there who after a time have come--come around to the position that uh, you know, they do a lot of good things. Uh, in our society we try to bring out, uh, you know, individual strengths and individualism and uh, in that kind of society uh, people are, you know, people who will compliment you are not hesitant also to criticize you when they feel you deserve it, so that you get it, (laughs) you know, you get all kinds of responses. But generally speaking, I think we've had uh, a response from pharmacists that has been satisfactory, let's put it that way. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: But I think if pharmacists in this state were generally dissatisfied, uh, it would have a--a kind of a negative effect on the uh, general reaction and performance of our faculty. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: One doesn't like to be located where uh--or hold a job where you're not appreciated and I think generally our people must--uh, would--would say this, that uh, you know, we are appreciated. Not everybody appreciates us. I would say we have worked--you know, there- -there are some centers of power across the state and uh, one of them is the Kentucky Pharmaceutical Association, another one is the Kentucky State Board of Pharmacy, we uh--we have a uh--a group within the state that we call the tripartite committee, comprised of membership of the KPHA--the Kentucky Pharmaceutical Association, that is--the state board and the college. So we meet about twice a year, three or four of us from each of the groups, and we talk about uh, the issues, problems, things we should be helping one another with, that sort of thing and uh, we're very open and know each other fairly well, are--are not hesitant about uh, disagreeing on issues, but basically I would say we get along very, very well with--what we do is very constructive. So maybe that'll help you in--in trying to understand where we come from in terms of our (coughs) relationships with pharmacists. Uh, we try to know the leaders and try to relate to them and uh, basically we uh--we get along pretty well. SMOOT: What do you think has been the impact of the Medical Center on the state, the local region and even on national levels? Uh, do you think that the University of Kentucky Medical Center has had a positive impact, that it has uh, uh, made some uh, important innovations uh, in the uh, development of its own curriculum or whatever? SWINTOSKY: O--over the years I think, uh, you know, there've been ups and downs, but I do believe that uh, enough has happened here at the University of Kentucky Medical Center that uh, in each of its uh, colleges and administrative units uh, it's gotten visibility and some notoriety. SMOOT: Um-hm. Could you point to anything specifically that you would-- that--that you think is especially noteworthy? SWINTOSKY: Oh, I think at one time the dental school had a uh--a curriculum that uh, uh, was kind of different and innovative. I think they uh--they had uh, provided an opportunity for students to uh, pace themselves. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: And uh, at the time it was being done, I thought uh, that uh--it had gotten a lot of attention and people thought, well, that's a very clever thing to uh--to--to do--or to try to do. I--I suspect, at this time, after years of experience, the dental school has reverted to the more traditional type of--(laughs)--of curriculum where you uh, carry--uh, one student carries the same load as another student and uh, you try to uh, establish a system that uh, assures that after a student gets into the uh, college that he either graduates in four years or he doesn't make it (laughs). Um, I guess the ideal world in education would be a--a situation where everybody has his own tutor and goes his pace, but uh, in times when uh, the budget is pretty important and you have to live within the budgetary constraints, the old system is perhaps the most efficient. So that's one thing that comes to mind immediately in the dental school and-- SMOOT: We--could we pause a moment? SWINTOSKY: Sure. [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: We were discussing the dental school. SWINTOSKY: Yeah. Um, in the medical School, you know, I--I just bounce around from one school to another--I think that's-- SMOOT: That's fine. SWINTOSKY: --the question you've asked. SMOOT: Yes. SWINTOSKY: In the medical school I think uh--I think things that are happening now are--strike me as being perhaps some of the most uh, adventurous and progressive things that uh, we're getting recognition for are certainly the establishment of the aging center and establishment of the cancer center or--represent um, developments that give us programs that are important to people. These are issues of aging and the issue of cancer are on a lot of peoples' minds. That um, people want to be able to live long lives that are um, happy lives, that uh, are associated with good health and uh, the--the attention we're giving to that is uh, well received. And then in this day and age, with uh, greater longevity and some of the other things that go on in this world that uh, result in uh, cancer, uh, people want uh, more effort given to overcoming the--the health problems associated--and the discomfort associated--with cancer and uh, I think the fact that the College of Medicine could give us the kind of leadership in the Medical Center to bring about these kinds of programs that seem to be quite well supported now um, are--are uh, giving us visibility and recognition. I think something is going on in nursing now, for example, that uh--nursing is trying to establish a graduate program and uh, there are not too many graduate programs in nursing around the country and so I'm--I'm sure it is uh, not only getting visibility and uh, notice around the country, but as a graduate program emerges in nursing, people will recognize that uh, this is the way to go to have a strong nursing program, to have a graduate program, uh, connected with your--with your college. Allied health has been, I think, progressive and uh, innovative in its uh, off campus teaching--use of clerkships and uh, externships. Uh, the--these have been uh, something I think that colleges of allied health across the country have looked to uh, Kentucky for, to learn how we do it here and uh, they have recognized uh, the faculty and the uh--the administration for pointing the way to uh, off campus education. It's hard for me to point to specific individuals on--uh, in this Medical Center, I guess uh, I'm really not that close to the individuals to say here's where--where--these--these people are your--your stars in teaching and in research, although I know there are some there. SMOOT: Um-hm. And you of course have al--you've noted some of the stars within the College of Pharmacy. SWINTOSKY: Yeah, within the College of Pharmacy I'm very close to--to our people and I could, you know, name you the--the people who got great teaching--or great teacher awards and the people who've been past presidents of the Academy of Pharmaceutical Sciences and people who've got national awards for uh--for their researches and that sort of thing. SMOOT: Well, let me ask you uh--another question, related to something you said earlier. When Jack Oswald was president here he had mentioned that he wanted to bring Kentucky up to standards of greatness-- SWINTOSKY: Um-hm. SMOOT: --uh, in relation to other major state universities around the country, (coughs) and you have already mentioned that the College of Pharmacy has done exceptionally well in ratings on a national basis. Does the university at large need to look more closely at what's going on in the College of Pharmacy? Or to put that another way, can the university at large learn something on how to achieve excellence, which is very much in the news today, uh, can they look to the College of Pharmacy as an example of how to achieve excellence, not only within the various colleges, but I'm talking about the--the university as a whole? SWINTOSKY: Well, I hope you're not trying to trap me into (Smoot laughs) something that, uh, you know, could sound very presumptuous. I think-- SMOOT: Not at all. SWINTOSKY: --I think uh, you know, people ought to look wherever they can to find uh, examples of uh, excellence and study them and if, you know, somebody can uh, look at us, and see things that we're doing that can help them, well, that's fine, but I'd rather not say any more about that. (both laugh) SMOOT: Okay. (laughs) I'm not trying to trap you, but uh--it--it would seem--it seems a good question to ask. Are there any other subjects that you would like to touch upon that I have not asked that you think relevant to what I am doing in terms of working on a history of the Medical Center? SWINTOSKY: Well, I guess uh, as I think about it, uh, we really haven't said much about some of the supporting staff and uh, I have felt that uh, we've been fortunate in being able to attract people to our staff, particularly in the uh--the clerical area and uh, middle management who--who like the work, like to work hard, like to be associated with a--with a hard driving place and uh, themselves have been uh, productive people. And I point that out to our faculty over and over, that uh, you know, the--the--the staff here makes a difference in how effective you can be. And if you hire--help us hire--good people and you encourage these people, you--you get them to like you and to support you in your work, you're going to be a much better person than if you uh, you know, have people who just are putting in their time and um--and not all that interested in how successful you are as an individual or how successful we are as a college. So, I think we've been fortunate to have some very, very fine staff people and the--the morale of the people is good and uh, we--we--we stress that. We try to uh, create a work environment here that people like and uh, we all try to be friends and uh--to the extent that you can be friends when you're in a--in a--in a--in a work environment that demands so much of you. But uh, I think we have very productive people in that area too, very nice people. SMOOT: Are there any other subjects shyou--you think that we should touch upon? SWINTOSKY: Well, I know there are some subjects that would--that I don't care to touch upon. (Smoot laughs) Uh, I think that--that jury trial has been in progress here for a while uh, is one of the sad uh, happenings and uh, I wish it weren't a part of our history, but I guess it is, uh, in the reality and uh, that's been a little bit disruptive, but uh, all in all we've had a uh--I think a very fine group of people to uh, come together at this college at uh, faculty, staff, student uh, level and uh, all in all mo--most people have known what they're here for and are committed to doing a good job. SMOOT: Are there any personal anecdotes you would like to relate--tell me about? SWINTOSKY: Well, I'll probably think of some later, but I uh--I don't think of any right off hand. SMOOT: I noted that uh, you're a member--honorary member--of the Polish Pharmaceutical Society. SWINTOSKY: Oh, yes--yes. SMOOT: And you're--you're going to uh, receive a--or have you already received your doctorate-- SWINTOSKY: No. SMOOT: --from the University of Poznan? SWINTOSKY: No--no, I haven't received it. I'm trying to uh, make arrangements to visit that country uh, sometime this year and--I--I uh, have never received an honorary doctorate. It's something different and uh, the fact that it's uh, you know, being offered to me from uh, the locale that represents where--where my paternal grandparents came from. Uh, I--it is of some interest to me. Uh, I feel pretty good about it. SMOOT: I would think so. Is there anything else you would like to discuss this afternoon? SWINTOSKY: Let me think. (laughs) SMOOT: Okay. SWINTOSKY: Well, I uh, uh, I think it's uh--it's nice to have a son who has decided to go into pharmacy and I have uh, one son who is uh, presently enrolled in the College of Pharmacy, he is a um, third year student in the university, first year student in the college, my son Robert is uh, uh--is interested in pharmacy and uh, I--I encourage him to the extent that I think I should encourage him to uh, study pharmacy, but I wouldn't want to uh, encourage him in a way which might uh, prevent him from going into another field that might be better for him if he--if he were to think it better for him. But uh, I--I'm glad that one of my sons in interested in pharmacy. If I uh, you know, if I think of some other anecdote that I ought to relate to you, I guess I don't have to do it at this moment. SMOOT: Certainly not. Let me-- SWINTOSKY: Let me just say this, that uh, we--we've become quite an intern--nationally known school. We have graduates and uh, uh, friends across the world, uh, a number of people who speak to our students and to our faculty on--on various occasions are visitors from many, many countries in the world. We--we--we have visitors uh, virtually every week and uh, so, we not only have become uh, recognized uh, nationally, but uh, we have a sort of a--a relationship going with our peers across the world and uh, uh, this happens through not only visitation, but a number of our faculty, I think are very, very strong uh, people in the sense that they are original and they get invited across the world. We have in--in a year I suppose a dozen people, uh, from our college out there someplace, either giving a, uh, few lectures at some university or invited to some international conference, uh, uh, maybe visiting uh, a specific industry abroad. In any case, uh, I think we have uh, about as much involvement with colleges of pharmacy abroad and industry abroad as one would like for a, college our size. SMOOT: Um-hm. SWINTOSKY: If I think of--you know, if there are some other things that strike me after you leave I'll--I'll make some notes and uh, communicate it to you. SMOOT: Let me thank you on behalf of the Medical Center and myself for giving me some time this afternoon. I've enjoyed it and I've learned a great deal. [End of interview.] In this interview, Dr. Joseph V. Swintosky (Professor and Dean of the College of Pharmacy at the University of Kentucky Medical Center 1967-1987), discusses his arrival at the Medical Center, the achievements of the College of Pharmacy, and the innovative clinical changes in curriculum pioneered by the College of Pharmacy. He discusses students, and broader educational issues in the state, and state funding. Swintosky also describes changes which have occurred in the Medical Center and distinctive impact and achievements. insert here