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1986-06-24 Interview with Virginia Lane, June 24, 1986 1986OH170 UKMC 48 01:48:44 UKMC001 University of Kentucky Medical Center Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries University of Kentucky. Medical Center -- History University of Kentucky. College of Nursing -- History Curriculum planning Curriculum change Nursing -- Study and teaching Virginia Lane; interviewee Richard C. 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LANE: I uh, was born in Indiana on a farm and uh, uh, came from a very rural background. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, went to um, school in Chicago, went to nursing school at Michael Reese Hospital, then I--after I finished uh, uh, school, nursing, I went the University of Chicago and got both an undergraduate and a graduate w--degree from the university, um. SMOOT: Um-hm. What were those degrees in? LANE: Uh, one of them was a bachelor of science and the other a master of art. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Um, then after I finished school, I worked at Michael Reese for a time and then I went to the--I worked at university clinics at the University of Chicago. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, maternity nursing was the thing that I was particularly interested in. Um, worked with some very fascinating people at the University of Chicago. Then I went from uh, the University of Chicago to the University of Texas and I was there for ten years. SMOOT: Hmm. LANE: Um, and the year before I came, the dean called me and asked if I would be interested in coming to Kentucky. Well, I certainly didn't think I was. And the next year she called and I told her that I really thought it would be a waste of money for--you know, I didn't want to waste the money of the good Kentuckians. (both laugh) And she said well, that's my problem. So um, uh, I decided I would come up, it would be interesting because I had heard about the development of the Medical Center two years previously. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And a friend of mine had said, wo--she was in pediatric nursing and maternity and pediatric nurses work well together-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And she said wouldn't it be fun to go to Kentucky, you know. Well, anyway I didn't certainly think that I was going to want to come to Kentucky. But I came up and it was absolutely a fascinating experience, um-- SMOOT: When was this? LANE: This was in 1960. SMOOT: Okay. And this was Marcia Dake who had called you. LANE: Marcia Dake called, right. Um, and after my contact with the people who were here, I decided I wanted to come. (both laugh) And so I came in 19 uh, 60, in July. SMOOT: Okay. So you were here when they were admitting the first students. LANE: Right. SMOOT: Okay. Let me back up just a moment and ask you what had interested you in going into nursing? Why did you real--why did you go into that area at all? LANE: Well, I think it primarily was the fact that my major interest was uh, uh, working with preschool children. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And uh, I was out of high school during the depression years. In fact, when I left nursing school--well, just prior to the time I went into nursing school, people were working at the hospital for room and board and many people were unemployed. Um, I didn't--and people e-- high school graduates that--in--in those days weren't as sophisticated as they now are about ways of helping yourself. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, and uh, I was out of high school for a year when my mother was ill and I took care of her and um, I decided it was going to be impossible for me to pursue preparing myself to teach preschool kids, uh, so I decided I'd go into nursing. SMOOT: And didn't regret it a bit? LANE: Uh, no, I--I think um, I was in nursing at a time when there was a lot of satisfaction in it, uh, a lot of hardship, a lot of um, long hours of work, but I don't really regret it. Although I'm so pleased that today women have a chance to choose a lot of different things that they can do. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: But in those days, you know, uh, nursing and teaching were the only options and since I was going to have to make my own way, uh, I wasn't sure I could do it um, getting my degree first, so-- SMOOT: You took a different route. LANE: Right. SMOOT: Well, let me get you back to Kentucky now. You had been to several different institutions. LANE: Right. SMOOT: And came to the University of Kentucky and decided that it was uh, an interesting place. Could you give me a little bit more uh, commentary on your first impressions of the University of Kentucky Medical Center in these early developmental stages and the people that you were meeting at the University of Kentucky College of Nursing? LANE: Um, well one reflection related to a dinner they had for--what was the name of the--Dr. Willard-- SMOOT: Yes. LANE: Um, when--at the time he left the Medical Center. And uh, when I went to that dinner, I was aware--uh, people had come back who had left, so it was a nucleus of people, who had been here when I came and what I realized at that point, and hadn't thought so much about really at the time that it was happening, was um, that there were very outstanding people in the health field that had been here at the time I had come. Uh, and my impression, uh, when I came, I guess uh, their particular interest in the development of the medical school was something that I had always believed in, you know, the whole idea that uh, you had to have a good education for all health professionals and that when you were taking care of people, uh, that it had to be an interdisciplinary thing for it really to bring to society what uh, people had a right to expect. Um, and uh, these people--well, how many da--times do you sit down and talk to a Dr. Pellegrino? SMOOT: Not many. (laughs) LANE: Um, uh, Dr. Willard, uh, was a very impressive person and he was so uh, um--he had a humility that is kind of unusual. Uh, and I remember so vividly he said, you know, we believe in these things, we don't know whether it can be done, but we're going to try. Um, another person that was very impressive was Dr. Deuschle. Um, and I guess the best way of describing him is that he sat his bucket down where he was. And um, um, his approach to health care, um, was really very sensible, it's what has come to be, it didn't exist at that point. Uh, but these were very unusual people. Uh, they also had the ability to work with others. You know, they were interested in interdisciplinary things, so, um, I think one always has to work at this kind of thing, but when people believe in this--um, I remember a young man, uh, that was em--in embryology that was absolutely a fabulous teacher. You certainly had to do something with embryology if you were teaching maternity nursing, but the whole question of how much when it's such an intricate and scientific kind of thing--well, his teaching was absolutely unbelievable. And I felt that I should uh, uh--really un-- know what people were teaching, so I went to people's classes and um, it was just a great experience. They were very knowledgeable, they were very able, it--by their actions they were, uh, doing what they believed in, you know. Um, I remember they had uh, management conferences. Um, of course they disappeared along the way. Uh, I'm sure they've come to be, you know, used in a lot of places now, but certainly weren't then--absolutely unbelievable. Um, can remember having worked with uh, some medical students along with nursing students, um, had a, uh great deal of trouble with this man from the mountains and uh--uh, he was- -all we knew was that he was anxious and this medical student who was assigned to him said now, what does a good Jewish boy from the Bronx (both laugh) know about this gentleman from Eastern Kentucky? I had better call in somebody who knows about these things. (Smoot laughs) Well, when they called in somebody who knew about the moun--mountain culture and the--there was no great mystery here and they sat up, uh, a way of working with this man so that the nursing student was in at the appropriate time. We found that there were some times that it was quite inappropriate for her to be around, you know. But these were very exciting things. SMOOT: Um-hm. Well, let me--let me hone down a little bit more now. You--you've mentioned some of the outstanding individuals who were associated with the Medical Center as a whole. Tell me more about the College of Nursing, the people that you worked with there, the students that you worked with there, especially in the first class or two, those people, uh, the quality of what they were doing, uh, the innovations that they may have been uh, attempting, et cetera. LANE: Um, well, uh, for instance, Jean Kennedy was a person, uh in nursing who was very bright and probably the most innovative person that I have ever worked with. Um, she subsequently got into difficulty because she became a protester, uh, went to prison and a few things like this, um-- SMOOT: What was she protesting? LANE: Um, well, uh, she was involved in the peace movement. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Um-- SMOOT: The Vietnam War? LANE: Right. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Um, but it was um, it was very exciting working with her because um, um, you found yourself being turned on by having conversations with her. Um, uh, Dean Dake was a--a--a real interesting lady. The night that I came--or the--the--when I came for a visit, uh, I probably--well, we went out to dinner and we got to talking, and I think we talked until daylight or so, you know. Uh, she was just, uh--y--uh--young, interested in doing things, had interesting ideas and it was stimulating. Um, then she was also interested in having people from the sciences intimately involved with us, so that um, uh, Judith Pratt, who was in the Department of Physiology was brought in as a part time staff person. And uh, Mary Ann, um--from behavioral science, Mary Ann Pearsall. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --was brought in for the behavioral science side of it, um, and uh--well, obviously when the--your field is physiology and behavioral science, you're not going to be very happy based in a nursing department. But, they brought uh, something very special to students when we worked in an interdisciplinary way with them. And uh, uh, uh- -I liked so much working with them that I just, uh--long after they left the department, I continued working with Mary Ann and uh, uh, Judith Pratt. Once again, you know, um, uh, I think in nursing historically, I was so accustomed to getting the good nurse--word about what nursing was, you know, it--in those--in the--until I went to school, um, you just didn't question. You were told what everything was about and that was it, you see. So that uh, um, uh, there was a, uh, uh, uh, an atmosphere of questioning, uh, of trying different things. Um, there were also, uh, some very difficult moments because, uh, the expression people used was, we're starting with a clean slate. (both laugh) Well, you don't start with a clean slate. You--you bring all of your vested interests and we all have them and sometimes, um, these are in opposition to the vested interests of others. SMOOT: Right. LANE: And Jean Kennedy had--um, uh, she was very persistent, she had the uh, idea that, uh, you should really have a--uh, a base of liberal arts education and uh, that you uh, then, uh, introduced the sciences as you got the professional education. Um, well, (both laugh) I could agree with the fact that liberal arts is very, very important, but trying to teach the sciences, uh, uh, at the same time you're getting the professional education was rather overwhelming to me. So that I wasn't sure, you know, that I can say that that really wasn't the right thing to do, but I had real qualms about, uh, whether or not you could give a solid enough background in the sciences. Um, because I guess I believe that you have to have--yes, you have to have liberal arts, but you have to have some--uh--uh, an equally good background in the sciences too. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, well, I think for about eight months we had this terrific conflict. No matter what subject we were on when we started, we always ended up on this subject. (both laugh) And I decided, this is very strange and I went back through all the minutes and I discovered that it had been decided six months previously that we--the students, would take science courses within the university system, you see, but Jane would not (laughs) give up. (Smoot laughs) She continued, even though the decision was made; she was going to push for it. Um-- SMOOT: Was this reflective of her own background? LANE: Well-- SMOOT: I mean was she liberal arts and then she had gone into sciences while she was being trained professionally? LANE: I don't really know. She had a strong liberal arts background, that-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --of that I'm convinced, but I don't think that there was any place, uh, at that time, uh, that somebody would have come out with that kind of background. So I don't know what the origin of this was, other than just a very keen belief in the fact that, um, the arts, the liberal arts, were very important in ones' life. Um, so then it was ou--you know, um, another uh, uh period and another very fascinating uh, person was Jean French. Uh, uh, Jean had worked with Dr. Deuschle previously and uh, they had wo--they had just had an experience on an Indian reservation, uh, prior to coming here. Well, you know, they had worked together so, uh, uh, when it came to what kind of experiences for students, Jean had very definite ideas and they were very good ideas (both laugh) you know, and they were things that could be done. And there were some of us that resisted Jean French tremendously, you see, because she was just--uh, I--I'm sure that I gave Jean plenty of static, I'm not sure that I gave her as much static as some people did. But, we certain--we just weren't ready for the Jean Frenches, you know, and um, in--in retrospect, I've thought of it so many times, I've never had the opport--I've never seen her since she left the Medical Center, but um, uh, she had tremendous ideas about the education of students, you know. Well, we--we uh, came up with more commonplace experiences (both laugh) for students, probably not as good as they might have been if Jean's ideas could have been utilized -------?? Um-- SMOOT: What did she want to do? LANE: Well-- SMOOT: Can you give me some examples of the types of the things she wanted-- LANE: Well, she had a very strong background in epidemiology. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And she wanted to--to build this in as a--sort of a base. Well, you know, you really can't beat that, uh, as a very logical approach. Uh, so that she wanted them to be, uh, with the interdisciplinary team, uh, out in communities, and uh--uh she certainly wanted them to be involved in um, uh, exploring--what--what does this community need? Um, uh, why do we know there are these needs? How do we go about, uh, trying to meet these? So that there was sort of the broader approach to health care, as well as the epidemiologic approach to situations where there was a problem. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, currently the dean at the College of Nursing now has an epidemiological background. I'm sure she would agree completely (both laugh) with Jean, you know, about experiences. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: So that it was a very, um--we came from very different parts of the country. Um, uh, uh, it was sort of a fulminarying--fulminating kind of situation. Um, uh, uh--it was uh--you had to work very hard because nothing was there, you know. Uh, all--you would go to do something and uh, you know, uh, realize that you had to have something to s--to work with. Well, you had to stop and develop this other thing, you see, before you could go on and--and proceed. So that it was um--it was a very interesting situation. I can remember, uh, Jane Kennedy had never taken care of heart patients and I had such admiration for her because one of the early people in was uh, a person who did heart surgery and uh, I was so impressed with the fact that Jane, uh, went out and prepared herself to be able to work with him in taking care of patients. And then she would bring other people in and work with them, so that there came to be a group of people who had the right background to work with this person who was doing heart surgery. Uh, as for the students, um, I--I guess one impression that I had--uh, there was quite a contrast between students here, and those I had worked with at the University of Texas. Um, the University of Texas students were more sophisticated than these. And--and this was very marked. Um-- SMOOT: Why do you think that was? LANE: Well, I don't really know. SMOOT: Can you pinpoint anything in particular that--which you think might-- LANE: I--I can't. You know, I think you would have to know more about what the background of the students were. Um-- SMOOT: Um-hm. Did you find that the students here were ill prepared? LANE: No, I'm not uh, saying that they were less prepared, less intelligent, um-- SMOOT: Perhaps they had not been exposed to as much, uh, outside of their own, uh, bailiwick. LANE: Yes--this--this is what I would say. SMOOT: Okay. Provincial. LANE: Yes--yeah. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Um, but, uh, students are always very fascinating and uh, I think that uh, student nurses always come--at--at that particular point in time--came with the idea that um, somebody is going to give them the good word. I was telling you about the background that I came from. Well, that was sort of the aura that was around nursing at that time, and I think the fact that we were, um, trying to help them learn to think and problem solve was very problematic sometimes to them, you know. And uh, maybe we didn't always go at it--you know, how do you do this? If people are not accustomed to--um, if uh, people sort of want you to give them the answers, how do you wean them away from this idea and help them to be more independent in their thinking? SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Uh so, you know, I'm not sure that we had all the answers to, how do you do this with students and--and we might have made it a bit difficult for students. So that I--I was aware of the fact students were rather apprehensive and I think, uh, part of this apprehension had to do with our own anxiety about not being absolutely sure where we were going-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --uh, trying to plot a new course and you just don't do this overnight, you know. And there are likely to be so--uh, some loose ends that effect the way you deliver the goods and I'm--I'm sure that it had its effect on students. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: But um--had fascinating experiences with students, you know, in--I can remember this one--you--you--when the school first started, you- -you didn't have a full component of people you needed, so many times you had to go outside of your field and do work. Well, I was working with students in relation to surgery and this uh, student had a patient from uh, Eastern Kentucky, um, so there was a communication barrier and the lady was a little retarded and she was going home on all kinds of medications. Well, I was absolutely amazed at how this student was able to work with her because she identified food that meant breakfast to this woman, uh, and food that meant lunch and supper and then she color-coded this to medications. And I can remember, uh, doctors came in when uh, she was working with the patient on this and, you know, doctors aren't awfully impressed (both laugh) with the--but they were terribly impressed with what this student was doing. And I remember vividly another girl who had--uh, uh, had been working with a family, uh, and--and at that particular time, the people--the families came in from Eastern Kentucky and they stayed with the people in the hospital. SMOOT: Right. LANE: So that she had been working with this woman and the family for about three weeks and uh, one day she came down to my office and her eyes were like that and she told me that the patient was dying. And um, I had had rather limited experience with death, other than the theoryet--theoretical frame of reference, (both laugh) but I decided we would go up together. And uh, it was real fascinating, we went into the intensive care unit and uh, there was a limit to what we could do, but we did what there was to be done and the student said, sh--the lady that I know is no longer there. There's nothing I can do to help her, so that I'm going to go out and be with the family. And so she went out and she was with the family. It had tremendous meaning to the family and it had tremendous meaning to her, and (laughs) to me. (Smoot laughs) You know, it was one of those things that uh, um, I wasn't sure I knew what we were supposed to be doing, but we just proceeded and worked it through and then talked about it later and it was a terrific experience. SMOOT: Was the student from Kentucky? LANE: She was a, uh, Kentucky student, um, but from uh--she was not a rural girl, she was from Louisville or L--she wasn't from Lexington. Maybe she was from Covington; I think she was. Um, so wherever you- -well, I just liked working with students and uh, uh, though they were different from the University of Texas, (laughs) um, you know, they-- they were--I--I think they were a little sensitive about it being a new school. I, think--I think this created apprehension among students because periodically we would have unrest and uh, we would have to work with it, you know. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And many times it related to anxiety because they didn't know what to expect. Well, you know, I think this reflected a struggling faculty. SMOOT: Let me ask you about the uh--well, let me back up and ask you about the situation of nursing in Kentucky during this developmental stage of the College of Nursing at the university. What was nursing education like in Kentucky? LANE: Well, I guess this was one of the things that really surprised me. In Texas I had been accustomed to, uh, working with um--with different groups. Uh, we had a very close working relationship with people in the health department, for instance, and uh, we would go off to various parts of the state and uh, have workshops, work together on workshops, um, for people in hospitals as well as people out in the public health field. And so over the--a period of time--and that was also true of um, uh, uh, work with physicians and other nurses within the Medical Center--um, the--the physicians had not been happy with people before, uh, that had preceded me, and uh, they were (laughs) really worried when I arrived (Smoot laughs) and I sort of cooled it and uh, we really developed a good working relationship. And um, um, s--when I came here, um, I found--well, number one, people had asked to give me, uh, asked for me to speak at a maternal and child health conference and I had written them and told them that I thought it would be much better to wait until I had been in the state for at least a year before I did this. But they insisted and I unwisely proceeded to do it. And I tried to get as much input from the people in the health department as I could and I--I really felt very handicapped in--in trying to participate in this workshop, even though I had prepared myself with getting as much information as I could about, you know, how it was being developed and trying to fit into it. Um, well, the interesting thing was, I participated and that was the last time I was ever invited to that particular group. Now, this was a group of public health nurses. Um, they were associated with the uh, public health department in the state and you had people in the central office and then you had people out in the area, so, um, this was largely uh, a continuing education thing for them and selected people in other situations throughout the state in maternal and child health. Um, well, I did what I could and I--I really had tremendous qualms about doing this because I just think you have to know the environment, uh, to really do a good job here and I had expressed all of this, but I had made the mistake of doing it. Well, that was the last time I was ever invited to that group. And I never was able to figure out what it was all about, you know, but it was a group that I would have liked to have been associated with because um, I'd had such a close working relationship with uh, um, um, public health nurses in Texas. I'd been down there for ten years and I'd worked very closely with them for at least five, uh, and--and we had traveled to all parts of the state and in some places we would go back, uh, you know, in a series of uh, situations. Um, and um--well, that was just sort of the end of that. I never--uh, other people were invited to this conference that they had every year, but that was the last I was invited. (both laugh) And I, you know, I never understood it. SMOOT: Hmm. LANE: But I certainly knew that um, I had worked well with these people in Texas and I was really perplexed about why I couldn't seem to be able to cut the mustard (laughs) here. (both laughs) Um, now how did I get onto that? SMOOT: Well, we were talking about the situation of nursing in Kentucky-- LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: --and you named that as one thing that uh, you had become involved with here. Uh, unfortunately, it didn't work out quite the way you had hoped, but uh--let me--let me give a little direction-- LANE: Okay. SMOOT: --to this if I may. Were most of the nurses in Kentucky, at the time of your coming here being trained in the uh, types of--of facilities that were normally associated with--with hospitals-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --at that time? LANE: Right. SMOOT: Uh, there wasn't any other College of Nursing? LANE: Well, there was--uh, uh, there was a collegiate school in Louisville. SMOOT: Okay. Associated with the University of Louisville? LANE: Yeah--right. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Now, there--there was a Catholic school too that was a collegiate school. No--no, it's the Catholic school that I'm thinking of, but I-- SMOOT: In Louisville? LANE: Yeah, right. SMOOT: I--I can't think of whom that would be. If you said the Catholics from Cincinnati, I'd say Saint Xavier, but I don't know who it would be in--in Louisville. Of the university or college, I-- colleges I know have seminaries and then you have-- LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: --U of L. Perhaps it'll come to us in bit. LANE: Well, I'm--I'm just not clear on that really. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: But I'm sure that it was a Catholic school. SMOOT: Okay. Was that uh, a full four year baccalaureate program? LANE: I think so. SMOOT: Okay. So what was the University of Kentucky trying to do that may have been different from what was going on elsewhere in the state, in terms of the education of nurses? Was it simply the fact that we had a shortage of nurses here or that it was felt that a uh, College of Nursing was just part of the comprehensiveness of a medical center, per se, that that particular genre of uh--of uh, institution, uh? LANE: Well, it was a matter of education was taking place in educational institutions. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And though historically nursing had not been in an educ--in educational institutions, um, there had been a lot of movement in that direction. Um, and the movement wa--was always difficult in nursing, um, because there--you know, once collegiate schools would get underway, uh, there was always a little friction-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --between the uh, um, diploma schools and the collegiate schools. And it--you know, that's un--I think it's understandable that it would be. SMOOT: Um-hm. Was there a shortage of nurses, um, in Kentucky, do you think, when the College of Nursing was created at the University of Kentucky? Or did Kentucky have a reasonably sufficient uh, number of nurses trained and in practice, uh, working in various institutions throughout the state? LANE: Well, I think they--uh, that there was a need for nursing on a collegiate level. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Because um, uh, the trend had been well underway for some time throughout the United States and uh, um, there--you know, there was this one school that I'm sure was a collegiate school that was here when UK was started. Um, but collegiate education was well established throughout the country. And there was no question about the fact that that was where it was ultimately going to go. And uh, in Texas, um, they were organized to move in that direction and uh, I don't know that there was that much organization to move in that direction here. Excuse me. SMOOT: That's my fault--it's my fault. [Pause in recording.] LANE: Now, what was the specific question-- SMOOT: Well-- LANE: --that you wanted me to talk about? SMOOT: Well, would you like to add anything more about a c--uh, in terms of a comparison between the types of uh, educational facilities available to students interested in nursing in Kentucky, prior to the development of the college at the University of Kentucky? If you--would you like to compare the types of education or add anything more to what we've already said there? LANE: I don't think so really. Uh, the diploma system was here-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --and I know there was one other collegiate school and I think it was in Louisville. It had to be in Louisville. Um, but, uh, you--you know, we--the university, I think is always likely to um, get a--a lot of attention when it has a program so that um-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --ours was the first program that people knew a lot about. I'm sorry I can't recall this other school. SMOOT: That's okay. LANE: It just vaguely seems like it was a Catholic school in Louisville. SMOOT: Let me turn the questions now then to the development of curriculum in the College of Nursing. Tell me about the early curriculum and how it changed over the years of your association with the college, and the reasons why it changed? LANE: Um, Dean Dake, uh, went to school at Columbia and uh, uh, at that particular time, uh, people who studied at Columbia, uh, were sort of exploring a particular approach to um, curriculum development. And a person who came in very early as an assistant dean had done her dissertation on the development of a curriculum that used this approach. Now um, traditionally, um, uh, curriculum was divided- -was developed according to uh, medical nursing, surgical nursing, introduction to nursing, you know, this kind of thing. And uh, this curriculum was focused on needs of people. So that it was uh, a complete change from what had been before. And um, at the point that I came, there was a general framework, but if you're making a major change in curriculum, which this was, it's something that has to transpire over a period of time. Because you have to continue digging and digging and developing to really get it the way you want it to be. And uh, those of us who were doing it--well there was no one who had a background--curriculum had never be--been developed this particular way. And I found it very pea--appealing because it seemed to me that um, uh, curriculum was always an area of special interest to me. And it really made sense that the focus be on people and what was happening to them, rather than a medical or surgical entity and the people sort of out around the periphery. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, so that was really one of the reasons why I came to Kentucky, because I realized it was going to be very difficult, but it was an approach that really made sense and I knew that you were going to have to work a whole lot harder and you had n--precious little to uh, help you in the development of this curriculum. Um-- SMOOT: Nobody else in the country was doing this? LANE: Unh-uh. SMOOT: It was--this was an innovation and this was--was something new. LANE: That's right. This was an inno--an innovation and uh, it was something that ultimately came to be, widely accepted throughout the country. Now, the matter of publication, you know, is always questionable, but we were so busy developing that we didn't have time to do any publishing. You know, when you're in a brand new situation and you're doing so many things--I guess if you're highly motivated and have the right skills, you could always publish. But um--it really was very interesting and very exciting and it really made sense, but it was also very, very difficult. SMOOT: Do you recall the name of the assistant dean who had written her dissertation on this particular style of--of uh? LANE: May--hmm, I can't think of her last name, isn't that terrible? SMOOT: She was here briefly and then went off somewhere else, is that correct? LANE: No. Uh, she was here for a period of about three years-- SMOOT: Okay. LANE: --and she died. SMOOT: Oh, okay. Was it--was this a doctoral dissertation that she had written on--on this? LANE: Right. SMOOT: At Columbia? LANE: At Columbia. SMOOT: But it had not been tried anywhere else? LANE: No. SMOOT: Okay. Uh, can you give me some of the details of the curriculum? You--you've said that it was a--a general approach and a people oriented-- LANE: Right. SMOOT: --uh, approach. Uh, how was it specifically different then? You--you've-- LANE: Okay. Like for instance, in a traditional uh, curriculum you would have um, um, nursing arts where you learn to do skills. Uh, you would have medical nursing, you would have surgical nursing. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: You would have obstetrics, psychiatric nursing and so on. Um, and uh--in my background, you had all the subspecialties, you know, (laughs) it was all chopped up. Well, this curriculum was uh, directed to needs of people and there were uh, about twelve needs; uh, a need for food, need to elimin--for elimination, um, uh--so that it was completely focused on needs of people and then what things interfere with this--these needs and how you can intervene to help this individual and family move ahead. SMOOT: That does seem sensible. LANE: Uh--well, it's--it's very sensible and it's going strong today because it was a sensible approach. But when you don't--uh, there were so few resources available to you, since nobody had done this before-- [telephone ringing]--excuse me. SMOOT: Certainly. [Pause in recording.] LANE: So that uh, um, teaching here at the University in--of Kentucky really involved a radical change in--in everything you did. SMOOT: Now, you mentioned that there was--you--you all really didn't have time to publish much. Uh, was anybody writing about this experiment, this test case at Kentucky uh, in--in nursing? LANE: No. SMOOT: Did anybody ever write anything about it later? LANE: Sub--uh, uh, uh, subsequently, uh, in the literature, material came out from other places. SMOOT: (sighs) But nothing from Kentucky as the test case? LANE: No. SMOOT: Who was aware of the um, change in curriculum development taking place at Kentucky, who was using Kentucky as its model? LANE: Well, I think everyone was aware of the fact that something was happening at Kentucky. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: But they viewed it as happening across the board; in medicine, nursing. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: Um-- SMOOT: I'm looking perhaps for an outside observer who may have written uh, something to the effect that, at Kentucky this is what they're doing and uh-- LANE: No, I don't--I don't recall anything like that. Uh, for a time people uh, were sort of interested in what was going on here and then because we didn't manage to publish, we sort of got lost in the shuffle. SMOOT: That's a shame. LANE: And uh, uh, subsequent--yeah, it really is. Uh, subsequent publications, you know, um, really made sense because these were things that we had--we had our own little version of them and other people's might vary a little bit. But um, it took a tremendous amount of effort and work to sort of put a different head on and think in terms of human needs, how they're being interfered with and what action you take because of however they are affected by what's happening to them. Uh, everything was cut and dried, you know, it was all laid out; one, two, three. Um, so I guess that's one thing that I've always been rather sad about; it took a tremendous amount of effort to do what we were doing because um, it was all so strange and we were trying terribly to stay out of traditional paths that we had taken previously, you see. Um, but uh, I'm sure that we were the first school to really get going on this. Now, I'm sure it was sort of a trend of the times and I think we were the early ones into it, but it's something that uh, has proved to be a pretty logical way of looking at the situations. And I--and I don't pretend to--to know what's going on in nursing now because for five years I've been away from it and made no attempt to, you know, know what's going on. It was very very difficult because you didn't have a precedent, you know, you didn't have all these notes you could pull out. SMOOT: Right. LANE: And you had to hit the literature and um, you couldn't find what you wanted there, you know, and you mi--you might just find something that would uh, lead to something else and--and develop into something, but uh, it took a tremendous amount of work. SMOOT: You've already mentioned that there was a--an interdisciplinary element, uh-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --within the college. Uh, was that an innovation too, really? Was that som--or was that something that you would see, uh, in other colleges of nursing around the country? LANE: No, it was--it was an--you know, uh, you always have a certain amount of interdisciplinary thing where you have people working together, but uh, it was--it was--those were new ideas. SMOOT: For example, behavioral science in nursing, was that--was that something brand new? LANE: Um-- SMOOT: You had somebody coming in from-- LANE: I had always worked with um, behavioral scientists-- SMOOT: Okay. LANE: --because they were in the Medical Center and for some reason or other, I found them fascinating people to work with. (both laugh) So, I just would go out to find them, you know? SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Um, but uh, there was no place where it was ever--you know, you had a department of behavioral science here and uh--in other places these people sort of dangled out of departments of community health or some place they--uh, it just--you know, they--they just didn't have the place that they had here, um. SMOOT: The same with community medicine, obviously. LANE: Right. SMOOT: It was entirely new and-- LANE: Right. SMOOT: --different. And--and the fact that you would be integrating something like that within your own curriculum would be uh, again, an innovation. LANE: Right. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: So there were a lot of--you were really faced with doing things differently and uh, you know, I liked that, but it was hard work. SMOOT: Um, you were working especially with surgery, is that right? LANE: No, I was uh, maternity. SMOOT: Maternity--maternity. So uh, it would be with the um, pediatricians? LANE: With the obstetricians and pediatricians. SMOOT: Obstetricians and--okay, both. LANE: Now, that was the smallest department in the Medical Center at the outset. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And they were the last people in, so that uh, uh, they had very few patients and uh, when I checked the community out to see what facilities would be best for us, uh, Central Baptist was the place where they had a lot of mothers and babies and-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --we sort of established that as a base because the department at uh, uh, UK was always very small. I guess it's larger now, but-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --it was the smallest department in the Medical Center. And they were just getting underway and so I chose to go someplace where you had um, an established service. SMOOT: How did you find the facilities there at Central Baptist? LANE: Um, well, that was sort of an interesting place. For a long time it sort of stayed the same, uh, and it was sort of like community hospitals I had been accustomed to in uh, Texas. Uh, but then after about--well, after a few years I think Central Baptist really sort of tried to change and--and more nearly meet the needs of families in the community, so they made a lot of changes-- SMOOT: Hmm. LANE: --that were good changes, I thought. SMOOT: Um-hm. And they were, as far as the community went, they were the best facility for your particular specialization? LANE: Right. SMOOT: Okay. Not reflecting on the other hospitals in a negative manner or sense? LANE: No, you h--because you--if you had a given number of students, you had to have a--a certain number of patients to have anything for them to have experience with. SMOOT: Right. LANE: And so um, um--they had adequate numbers of uh, patients and it was just the most desirable place to start. And even though--after the Medical Center got underway, we utilized the Medical Center--they always continued using Central Baptist, uh, because the service at the university is--is pretty different than you find out in the community. SMOOT: Did you work closely with various members of the faculty, uh, in obstetrics and in uh, pediatrics? LANE: What uh-- SMOOT: In terms of-- LANE: When you say faculty, what kind of faculty do you mean? SMOOT: Professors. Uh, there was an M.D. who was also attached as a full time professor in the--the Department of Pediatrics is an example. Did you work with them in coordinating your programs, uh? LANE: Well, um, I had some contact with Dr. Greene, who was the obstetrician at the University of Kentucky. Uh, but if you're not working--if you're working in another agency--because what was going on at the University of Kentucky was really pretty different than what was going on in the community hospital. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And you get--uh, they had a lot of abnormality at the University of Kentucky; and what you were concerned with was the students seeing the normal process. And so for that reason, you see, uh, it was--you had to go where you could find that and Central Baptist was the place where it was most accessible in-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --and you had patients in numbers that were suitable for the numbers of students that you had. SMOOT: How do you think the nursing graduates of the College of Nursing here compared with the uh, graduates of the other institutions that were uh, extant in Kentucky at that time? LANE: You mean the graduates, uh, here in Kentucky? SMOOT: The gradu--yes, the graduates of--compare the graduates of our College of Nursing with the graduates of the other institutions for nurses around the state. LANE: At that time? SMOOT: At that time. LANE: Well, uh, you know, you had--it was comparable to what it was all over the country. You had uh, diploma students, who had a lot of experience-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --and uh, who, um, had a lot of uh, organizational ability and a lot of composure at the time that they finished. Um, you had collegiate graduates whose--who couldn't possibly have the same amount of experience that these people had, but we tried to set up an experience that would be as meaningful as possible in the given period of time we had. And we were concentrating on developing problem solving skills and this kind of thing. Um, so that when uh, y--y--when people graduate, the collegiate students will flounder for a while--the--the collegiate graduates, you know, until they find their feet, um, bu--and the, uh, uh--the diploma students will go zooming out because they've--they've done work by the yards, you know. Uh, so that it looks like they're ahead, but uh, you know, if you had a collegiate education, you're a more--you question more, your experience is broader so that uh, you may get off the ground slower-- SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: --but uh, you have more background for growing. And I think that was what you saw here. SMOOT: So really nothing uh, particularly different here than you would find anywhere else in the country. LANE: Unh-uh. SMOOT: Okay. How would you evaluate the um, programs throughout the Medical Center? Uh, you know, this is always sort of an arbitrary and subjective sort of thing, but would you say that the general level of education for the students throughout the Medical Center was of a high quality, of a--a quality of uh, mediocrity, of uh, especially good; how would you evaluate it? LANE: Well, you see, once the original group left, the place changed and uh, those people who were originally were very stimulating and fascinating people that stirred things up all the time. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And it was sort of a growing--you had a sense of growth. Um, and it was a real exciting place. And then there came a time when that sort of began to disappear from the picture. Now, maybe it has to do with the fact the Medical Center was growing in size because if you looked at the size, you know, the growth was phenomenal, and, uh, uh, maybe it had to do with the people that were here and maybe it was a mix. SMOOT: Um-hm. So you could really attribute it to a variety of factors? LANE: Right. SMOOT: Um-hm. When would you--when did you start to notice these changes? I mean, was it like when Dr. Willard retired or was it before then or was it after then? LANE: I would say it was in about five years, and I don't really know what events were going on, but I think Dr. Pellegrino and Dr. Willard and Dr. Deuschle, were um, very forceful people in the development of the Medical Center. And I'm not sure exactly when they disappeared from the picture, but as that happened it had a tremendous effect on the Medical Center. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Oh there was an--a person in physiology too, Dr. Carlson. SMOOT: Loren Carlson? LANE: Loren Carlson. SMOOT: Um-hm. Another dynamic person would you say? LANE: Yes--yes. SMOOT: Excuse me. LANE: Uh, well, and the behavioral science department was--was absolutely--you know, it was fulminating; it was fascinating. SMOOT: Let me back up to the beginning again and ask you another quick question. Uh, we've really touched on it here and there, but I--I want to put it--the question to you specifically. Uh, when you came here, were you made aware of a different philosophy and approach to medical education as a whole? LANE: Oh, yes. SMOOT: Can you tell me a little bit more about that specifically? LANE: Well, number one, when you came to be interviewed for a job, you already knew what the situation was because you didn't just see two or three people, you went through the ga--you spent two days of seeing- -uh, it was really grueling, but very exciting. You saw maybe um, uh, ten people in a two day period and um, you had a--a uh, good sense of who was here and what they were trying to do. SMOOT: Do you recall who you saw those first two days? LANE: Uh, I saw Dr. Willard, I saw Dr. Pellegrino, I saw Dr. Deuschle; um, I saw the man in surgery. SMOOT: Eiseman, Dr. Eiseman? LANE: No, there was a person here before Eiseman. No, I'm confusing him with a pediatrician. I take that back, it was the pediatrician. Um, I can't think of names, but I can remember people. A man who taught em-- um, embryonic development and he was in the Department of Anatomy. Um- SMOOT: I know people in his departments, but I know I--it wouldn't be the right people, so I'm-- LANE: Yeah. Well, the ones that I remember the most were Dr. Pellegrino and Dr. Deuschle and Dr. Willard, because they were very forceful people and, you know, were--conveyed a message that was significant, I thought. SMOOT: Did you talk perhaps to Dr. Bost at that time or Bob Straus at that time? LANE: I don't re--well, you see, you not--you met individuals and then you grou--met groups of people. SMOOT: I see. LANE: And uh, along--you know, uh, Dr. Bost and um--they were people that you knew right off, but I'm not sure that I saw them when I visited. SMOOT: Did you notice that the philosophical commitments were uh, beginning to wane as time went by or-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: Was this about the same time that you noted that there was uh-- there were some different changes, about five years? LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: I--you know, I'm not sure that five years is just right. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: But there was a--a--a period of time when you had a feeling of growth and uh, um, then about--I--that change came about five years. SMOOT: '65, '66, '67. LANE: Yeah, right. SMOOT: Somewhere in there. LANE: Uh-hm, right. SMOOT: And did you ever notice uh, an upswing again after that, in terms of the uh, spirit of the institution or the um, commitment of the institution, uh, or did it seem like it had kind of leveled off--it had hit a plateau and here we are, we've uh-- LANE: It just sort of hit a plateau. You know, here we're--this--uh, uh, here was this period of rather exciting times and then it just sort of leveled off. SMOOT: Do you think that an--an inevitability or do you think that is something that uh, could have been maintained, should have been maintained? LANE: I don't really know. You know, when you stop to think of what's involved in the growth of an institution as complex as that, you know, it's very difficult to say that it could have been maintained because it really took a tremendous amount of doing to get underway and--and get it running and, uh, you know--so I don't know, maybe it was just um, something that couldn't be achieved. SMOOT: What do you think has been the impact of the College of Nursing specifically and the Medical Center in general in terms of medical health care practice in the state of Kentucky and in Lexington-Fayette County in particular, Eastern Kentucky in particular I should say. LANE: Well, um, I'm thinking about uh, uh, the work of Dr. Deuschle, um--he uh, promptly got out into the state and uh, was involved. Um--and I'm thinking about out--it seems that out in Eastern Kentucky, some of the things that were started early have continued, um, although I've--you know, I'm not sure what these are today, uh, but I think the early impact probably left an im--imprint. SMOOT: What about the standards of competition in the state? Do you think that the Medical Center has had a positive or a negative impact on uh, medi--medical health care competition, do you think it affected? LANE: Well, I could never--I guess I don't understand it and I was always rather perplexed about it because having come from the University of Chicago and the University of Texas, where there was sort of an established leadership and this wasn't questioned--well, it was questioned, yes, but you know, uh, they were productive institutions and they had an impact and um, it just seemed as though there was always so much controversy about, should the University of Kentucky really have a medical center anyway? And I guess that's a legitimate question. You know, now that I'm no longer involved, uh, I guess I can see it better than I did at the time. At the time I thought, you know, crazy question. Um, but, you know, I guess one of the things that I've always had wonderment about in Kentucky--I love Kentucky dearly, but it--you know, all the--it--it has so many institutions and no matter how much money there is, or how little money there is, it has to be spread around through all of these institutions. And you know, now, twenty-five years later, I can say to myself, you know, maybe--maybe there wasn't the need for another medical center. I don't really know. SMOOT: Um-hm. It is a difficult question and you get various opinions on it of course. Would you--would you identify the source of most of the questioning about the development of a Medical Center here at UK as coming from Louisville or was this a question that was uh, coming from Frankfort or just a statewide question, you think, uh? LANE: Could never really--there was just always the question. And what the source of this was, you never knew, but it was never very far under the surface. SMOOT: Um-hm. Did that create anxiety among the faculty, you think? LANE: Well, I don't know, you know, I think you're ma--uh, people are pretty--you know, in--if you've been around a bit, you have one thing in one place and another thing in another and you learn to live with it. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: So I think it was um, just something that you learned to live with. But I had come from a state where there was so much working together that it was a real shocker to come here and find that there wasn't much of this. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And--and when I'm--meaning statewide, you know. You were looked at with real suspicion. (both laugh) We thought we were doing, you know, an important job. Uh, but uh, uh, I think that most people saw us as foreign invaders. SMOOT: Um-hm. Well, in--indeed most of the people that were being brought in to the Medical Center were from other states-- LANE: Right. SMOOT: --and other places around-- LANE: Right. SMOOT: --the country, other experiences altogether, different accents. LANE: Right. SMOOT: Uh, did you find uh, that uh, as a problem when you came here or did you just find it as a curiosity, uh, perhaps the people here were curious as to where you were from and so on? LANE: Well, I don't know. I guess uh, uh, I didn't think much of it because in most institutions you have a rather heterogeneous group and uh, I'm not sure this was any more heterogeneous than any group that I'd worked with before, you know. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: In that, um--well, I guess it was more so than in Texas. That was sort of ingrown a bit. SMOOT: If you were going to identify the greatest accomplishments of the College of Nursing, over your years of association with the college, what would they be? LANE: Well, I think the way we started out had an impact, much of which, a lot of which, has been lost along the way. But I think it was important and I think the impact of that, has affected the school. SMOOT: In a good way? LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: Can you be a little more specific on how this has impacted the school? LANE: Well, you have to think in a different way. At least I found that to be true. And I think that's just a healthy thing to happen to you. And um, you know, I can speak only for the times uh, I was--the time that I was here. Um, I just think that was very--when you look at the tradition of nursing and uh, how everything was so um, cut and dried, you know, and so limited. Uh, I think this approach brought a dimension that was very necessary to open the windows so students could have fresh air and be nurtured in the process of learning. You know, I just had stuff shoved down my throat, and I was in a very good school. SMOOT: (laughs) Um-hm. LANE: Um, so I think the way we started out was a--a ver--you know, it was a--was a contribution. SMOOT: A real contribution, that you-- LANE: I really do. SMOOT: Okay. LANE: And I know it created a lot of problems (both laugh) along the way, but I think it brought fresh air to the prof--to nursing. SMOOT: Okay. And the problems you would have identified were primarily within the faculty and their own preparation and the--and with the students not quite knowing, uh, or having the direction-- LANE: Yeah, when you're in the process of trying to work something through, you know, if you have your lectures that you've had for fifty years there's no problem, (Smoot laughs) but if you have to s--uh, sit down and really uh, uh, dig things out, which is a completely different approach and even your sources are limited, you know, you take a little step along the way. But I th--I think it was--it was a very healthy thing. So I would see that as--that would be the major thing. [Pause in recording.] SMOOT: Ms. Lane, let me ask you something now about uh, one of the more traditional problems you hear about at least, is the relationship between the physicians and the nurses. How were those relationships in the University of Kentucky Medical Center? Were they traditional? Were there problems with the physicians, uh, looking down their noses perhaps at some of the nurses and not treating them quite as professionally as they might have en--enjoyed otherwise, uh, or did you find that there was perhaps a little bit of a, uh, difference, uh, at UK? LANE: Well, I can speak only from my limited, um, recollections. Um, now, the maternity department at UK was very small, as I told you, and it was, uh, uh--a lot of the patients that went there had pathology. Um, I had started, um, working with students at Central Baptist, I think before the--uh, the--the uh, maternity section was even opened at UK. But it opened, um, shortly thereafter, uh--but I recognized that there were tremendous limits, uh, to that particular situation at that particular time, uh, and, uh, if you can't divide yourself in two, uh, I just felt that it was better to have experience at Central Baptist. Um, well, (laughs)--well, that--that created a real barrier between Dr. Greene and me (Smoot laughs) because he wanted, uh, uh, you know, students in there and I could see why he did and I would have liked to have had them in there some myself, uh--so that, well, you see, we had a little antagonism going there. Now, it had nothing to do with my respect for him, but it just had to do with the fact that um, uh--students needed to--to uh, know what normal maternity experiences were like. And gee, you know, it was utter pathology there and I would've thought that it would've--now there's a place for that, but I--I really would have shortchanged the students if I would have tried to have had their experiences at UK, you see. So Dr. Greene (both laugh) and I were like this, you see, sort of from the very beginning, uh, because you really have to be in the same situation and working together to develop relationships. (both laugh) So that, um, you know, he wasn't really very happy about that. Um, so that, uh, if you're not in the situation, you see, um, there was no way I had any chance of de--developing a working relationship with him, nor he with me. But it wa--you had to make a decision, are you just going to blindly go into the Medical Center and do what there is to be done there or do you really--if you're going to go with this uh, curriculum that was being developed and you were concerned about human needs and how these needs were met, you had to go where there were normal patients and in numbers that you could work with the number of students you were going to have. So I had to make a choice and I went to Central Baptist. Now, I did on occasion go back to UK and work with students for certain reasons, uh, apart from their main course. Um, but we di--uh, Dr. Greene and I just uh, you know, we didn't get along very well and I think it's understandable because how--how can you develop a working relationship with somebody, uh, when you're not in the same situation, you see? SMOOT: Hmm, um-hm. Were there any other problems, uh, along those lines? LANE: That was enough. (both laugh) Well, let's-- SMOOT: Did-- LANE: --see. SMOOT: --did your students ever come to you and say, gosh, Professor Lane, I'm having so much trouble with Dr. So and so, do you think-- LANE: No, not really, unh-uh. Um, there just wasn't any relationship there. (both laugh) But I don't know that uh, anybody ever went out of their way to be nasty or anything like that. SMOOT: What about at Central Baptist? LANE: Um, well, there, you see, gee, um, you had a lot of different obstetricians-- SMOOT: Hmm. LANE: --and uh, I think people enjoyed having students and we did okay at Central Baptist. Now, I'm uh, not sure that--how much they knew about our program, they weren't all that interested in the nursing program at UK, you know, but in the day to day working relationships, I think we did okay. SMOOT: Did you ever participate in any of the political ends, uh, of nursing education in Kentucky or on a national basis? Any various, uh, organizations that uh, are available for political mobilization of--of the profession and--and trying to make changes in this profession or, uh, lobby with the legislature or anything like that? LANE: Well, I had done work, uh, in Texas, but I was too busy (both laugh) when I got here, concentrating on my job, um, to be doing anything else. SMOOT: Who were the leaders of those types of efforts within the college? LANE: Uh, well, Dean Dake and Jane Kennedy, uh, she--this--this person that um--well, she was a very powerful figure, um, and she really had a very good mind, uh, so during the early period, I think those two people, um, plus Jean French, the girl that uh, was in public health nursing. SMOOT: Have you had time to participate in any of these professional organizations? LANE: Well, I was too busy with my job. I had always been very, very active professionally when I was in Texas and Chicago, but uh, I was too busy doing my here--homework after I got here. SMOOT: Do you think that was good--bad or just--just the nature of the beast here, you--you needed to do that? LANE: Well, I just uh, you know, I considered it the nature of the beast and I guess I felt so keenly that there was a need for how nursing was taught, that I was willing to make that sacrifice or maybe it effected h--my job, you--you know, I don't know, but it was all I could do. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: But I really felt that it was a pretty important thing to be doing. SMOOT: Do you think that the state has given adequate support, uh, to the University of Kentucky's College of Nursing? LANE: I don't know that I can really answer that. SMOOT: How about uh, in terms of research support, state and federal, do you think that the College of Nursing has done well in--in uh, receiving financial support for any research efforts or uh, other types of um, special uh, developments going on within the college? LANE: I don't know, I had a project that was funded for three years and uh, I don't know that anything very earth shaking came out of it. Um. SMOOT: Was this federally supported or-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --state and federal? LANE: Federal support. SMOOT: Um-hm. And what was the nature of the project? LANE: Um, it was--it uh--it involved teaching maternity nursing. We had a model that was developed and program materials to go with it and uh, uh, it was basically to help students learn how to take care of people in labor. Worked with uh, um, a fellow in uh, engineering and he developed this model and--and they could practice on the model, you see, um, and what you wanted them to learn was programmed so that when they went in to take care of patients they had a different level of experience that they would've go--had if they had just read an article on--on it. They had programmed material that they had to work on with the mannequin. Um, I don't know, I suppose that we haven't had as much--uh, uh, the research effort has really been very limited in the College of Nursing, until now, and, um, you know, I think now they have a faculty that are equipped to do research. SMOOT: Do you think the uh, research effort or lack thereof, I guess, uh, during these earlier years was perhaps the weak link in evaluating the College of Nursing? Often times when you see evaluations or-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --you know, rankings of--of institutions like this, they say, well, let's see what they're doing in teaching, let's see what kind of students they're getting and the curriculum and how much research is going on-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --what kind of publications they're putting out-- LANE: Um-hm. SMOOT: --and publications of research, were these--were these the weakest points in the early years? LANE: Yeah, I would think so. And I, you know, I'm sure that that's inevitably going to effect a situation. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: There's just no denying that. SMOOT: Um-hm. You came under the uh, direction of Marcia Dake. LANE: Right. SMOOT: She was the dean. She was succeeded by Marion McKenna, is that right? LANE: Right. SMOOT: Could you compare the two? LANE: Well, I don't think I could. I, uh, am of the belief that a particular individual is selected, they move in and they--they see the direction they're going and they go. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And somebody else comes in and I think institutions grow as you have this movement from one leader to the other. Um, I just don't think it's fair to compare them. Do you know what I mean? SMOOT: Yes I do. LANE: Uh now, I think you can describe the--the situation. For instance, uh, Marcia Dake had had much less experience in nursing than uh, uh, Marion McKenna had. Um, she had, uh, in her experience at teacher's college, this uh, experience with this curriculum, she had this commitment. Um, well, you see, I think that brought something. And--and then she brought in this person who had actually done her dissertation on this. Um, so I think this brought one thing to the college. And then uh, uh, Marion McKenna came at a time when there was a tremendous amount of unrest. SMOOT: The unrest due to what? LANE: Oh, hard to answer-- SMOOT: Dissatisfaction? LANE: Sort of a dis--diffuse satis--dissatisfaction. SMOOT: Stemming from? LANE: Um, well, our--uh, uh, when I say diffuse dissatisfaction, I'm thinking of the role of the college within the Medical Center. SMOOT: Yes. LANE: You know, at one point it seemed as though we were a part of it and we were moving along, you know, and then it seemed as though there was this time when we sort of got lost, (both laugh) when we no longer had this beginning that I was telling you about. SMOOT: Yes. LANE: And um, um, Marcia's impact was sort of lost and we were struggling with the curriculum, you know, and probably had tunnel vision, uh, and I think we lost all of our context that we had had originally. And then Marion came in, a very forceful lady, you know, and I think this was what was needed at that particular time. And um, I think we were sort of lost in the Medical Center until Marion came in and she sort of helped to get us found and um, I think she moved us ahead in a different way. And--and the current dean brings a whole different set of background to the situation that is terribly needed in this era, to move this school ahead. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Does that make any sense? SMOOT: That ma--uh, yes. LANE: That--not, it's re--it's not really answering your question, but it seemed to me that these ladies were appropriate to their time. Marcia was the explorer (both laugh), Marion, uh, came at a time when direction was needed and the lady that's there now--uh, you know, the school needs to grow, in a--in a much different direction. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: And she's got the ability to--to do that. SMOOT: I see. So--moving back--tracking a moment now, considering your answer in uh, comparing and contrasting the deans, uh, you would probably have sim--similar feelings to comparing the leaders of the Medical Center as a whole, Dr. Willard and Dr. Bosomworth--or would you be able to make a different comparison, uh--or contrast the two figures and their leadership skills and abilities and accomplishments because you were a little bit more detached from them, being in just the one college? Setting up on the pedestal, somewhat detached--I don't know if that's the right analogy and I don't know that either man would appreciate it-- LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: --so very much, but I don't mean it in a derogatory sense at all. LANE: I don't know that I can do it. SMOOT: Would you say that it's similar once again to fitting the uh, needs of the institution as a whole now, uh, rather than just the college with the deans? Uh-- LANE: Yeah, I would a--I would almost say that, yeah. SMOOT: Okay--okay. What do you think has been the general attitude of nurses around the country, colleagues, particularly in the colleges of nursing around the country towards the University of Kentucky? And I don't mean just in the early period, but I mean through all the years of your experience with the University of Kentucky College Of Nursing. LANE: Well, I'm not--you see, I had my nose to the grindstone so much while I was here that I'm uh, not a very good person to be checking that out with, really. But in my experience in nursing, I know that there are stereotypes attached to given schools and the stereotype that I've been familiar with is that there is nothing decent below the Mason-Dixon Line. SMOOT: Um-hm. Have you found that to be so? LANE: Well, I--I've spent half of my career below (both laugh) the Mason-Dixon Line; you know what the answer is there. You know, uh, some of the um, um--well, I've been in very stimulating and exciting situations south of the Mason-Dixon Line and I'm still living here, (both laugh) so I guess that says something. SMOOT: Um-hm. So you think that's primarily a northeastern prejudice that has simply held on there-- LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: --uh, for various reasons. Of course, it's--it's--it's beneficial to some institutions to maintain that uh, uh-- LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: --that sort of an outlook. LANE: Yeah. SMOOT: Okay. Um, did you ever have any time for any community activities? LANE: Well, yes, in a very limited way. Uh, uh, let's see; one of the real interesting ones was the preliminary activities to the development of the um, local health maintenance organization. SMOOT: Hmm. LANE: Um, somebody came to the College of Nursing and wanted to know about somebody participating in, the medical students, and Joe Engleburg were involved in some activities. And then I, you know, I was sort of interested in learning about what they were doing and um, well, really, what it amounted to was that Joe Engleburg really was the person that stimulated the development of the local HMO and it had its beginnings in this little activity that I had heard about. Well, I uh, actually um, worked with them, uh, for as long as I could, and then my mother was ill, and--and I couldn't be involved any longer. But it was a very exciting experience. SMOOT: Any other activities in the community that you would like to point to or organizations, fund drives, other leadership activities you took part in? LANE: Well, the uh--the development of the simulator that I told you about, that was a very exciting situation and I really did love working with somebody in engineering on this. Um, and uh, uh, this development of the HMO was very exciting. Um, that--that was it. SMOOT: Okay. Are there any other topics that you think shoul--I should have asked you regarding the history of the College of Nursing or the Medical Center in general that you would like to discuss? LANE: What a question. SMOOT: It's my catchall. LANE: Yes--yes-- SMOOT: That really-- LANE: --I can--I can see. SMOOT: (laughs) Uh, I do have one after this for you--I ha--that I've already put together. LANE: I can't really think of anything now. SMOOT: So do you think that I'm asking the right kinds of questions to develop a history of the Medical Center and-- LANE: I'm sort of amazed, you know. I was wondering how were you going to go about this and uh, um, you know, as somebody who hasn't thought about these times at all, I'm just sort of amazed at how much we've covered--um, more than I would've thought was there in my memory actually. (laughs) I ca--no, I can't, really. SMOOT: Okay. Then this is a question perhaps for the uh--for the new dean. What do you think the direction of uh--of education should be in the College of Nursing in the future? Do you think that they should continue along the same lines that they have been following for the past twenty-five years or so or that they should be striking out in new directions or-- LANE: Oh, you see, I think she is striking out in a new direction. I don't think there's any question about that. SMOOT: Um-hm. LANE: Because, uh, um, uh, in nursing, it--uh, it's taken a long time to get uh, people with the right preparation to--to do teaching, research and so on. SMOOT: Um-hm, um-hm. LANE: Um, and um, this dean has people who can do this, you know. Uh--uh, I don't know--but uh, the numbers of--of well qualified people have increased tremendously since she's here. Now, there are people who have uh, a big--you know, a lot of experience who are continuing on in this school. But um, I think the dean that's there in the school now, I think we're just very lucky to have her. And I'm not intimately knowledgeable about what's going on, but I know enough about her and what's going on to feel that the school is in good hands. And it--it, you know, with--when you have people with a different preparation, you know, uh, the product is going to be different. SMOOT: Inevitably. LANE: Right. SMOOT: Is there anything else you would like to add to what we have discussed this afternoon? LANE: If I think of anything I'll let you know. SMOOT: Please do. LANE: (laughs) Okay. SMOOT: Let me thank you on behalf of the Medical Center and the University Library for spending so much time with me this afternoon, Ms. Lane. LANE: Well, I've enjoyed it. SMOOT: Thank you. [End of interview.] Virginia Lane (Professor of Nursing) came to the University of Kentucky College of Nursing in 1960. In this interview, Lane discusses the early challenges of nursing education, and the conflict in developing suitable curriculum. She describes nursing training outside of colleges, and the new style of curriculum developed at the University of Kentucky. In addition, Lane also compares different educational styles and institutions, and evaluates general problems faced by nursing programs. insert here